What do you think of the Sunpower panels?

[russ]

Hi Greg, Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

Let us see what kind of replies you get.

Russ

[greg kindy leed ap]

Does anyone have information about the difference between the monocrystalline in SunPower's panel versus the multicrystalline in Kyocera's panel, in terms of output in extreme heat? I'm talking about well over 100 degree temperatures on rooftops. I'm just curious. I kept hearing about issues in high heat with a panel with monocrystalline. But nothing more than rumor. Any data please? Thanks.

[greg kindy leed ap]

SunPower vs. Kyocera

I think SunPower modules are too expensive, still.

It's buyer beware- as always. A salesperson will always add the sizzle when a smart customer is really just wanting the steak.
The SunPower "Premier Dealer" thing is just sizzle really, I think. The dealers I know have a hard time closing the sale, because
the modules are pricey. It's simply about getting the electricity from a PV system for the best price! Also, an installation of high
quality matters- having installers who know all the tricks of the trade regarding inverters and strings.

Why pay more for a premium dealer? Do they give the customer off-the-chart terrific service for the extra cost? They better.....

As far as Kyocera vs. SunPower, I know of a department store with a large system with over 100 strings and 3 sub-arrays, using
the SunPower T10 module. Right in the specs it rates their 215W down to 198.5W-ptc. Why not go with a Kyocera KD210GX-LP?

Conservatively, this module has an output of 199.5 watts (W-ptc).

My region is Southern California. I know of a +1MW installed system using the Kyocera KD210. It's beautiful, by the way. And kicks it
just fine in terms of kWh. I'm specifying this module for systems I've just recently designed. It does the job. I am impressed actually.
I use the MOST conservative numbers, and figure in all system losses and the Kyocera KD210 is pretty awesome in kWh.

Last word for this post: Kyocera is an "open" company. SunPower has a different model through their premium dealer network. Tight.
With Kyocera you can get much more performance data, up front.

And Kyocera has a new solar-panel factory in Kearny Mesa (San Diego). Which is great for me and my customers in SoCal.

[JustinSolarGuy]

They certainly are nice panels but how much do they cost? An Acura or Lexus is nicer than a honda or toyota but when if are buying a car just to get you around you are probably going to buy the Honda or Toyota. Sure they put out more per STC watt and perform better under certain conditions however I have a hard enough time getting someone to buy panels at $2.75 per watt. My customers seem to care about one thing. Spending the least amount of money to save the most off of their bill. You could call that cost efficiecny. Sunpower doesnt seem to stack up in that arena. Panel to panel or STC watt to STC watt they are certainly fantastic modules but I think you can generate just as much KWH for less money. Especially in my state where rebate is per installed watt not per KWH generated. But maybe I am wrong. If I could easily obtain the modules at a competitive price I would certainly consider using them. But I have found when I bid against a sunpower installer I usually win the job with a less expensive American Made module.

[solarAZ]

I love how you have people in a web environment making assumptions over products a. they don't own or b. don't sell. I actually do both. I own a SunPower system and I am also a SunPower dealer. Just because someone is a SunPower dealer doesn't mean they can only sell SunPower. I sell and install all brands of Solar Panels from Kyocera, Mitsu, Sanyo, Sharp, Evergreen and Sunpower.

IMHO I don't think there is one best panel for all homes. It depends on where you live. I live in Phoenix, Arizona where we have 300 plus days of unobstructed sun and high heat conditions. For this market the best panels are going to be Sanyo or SunPower because of their temp coefficient and types of light they take in. For instance going off client installation data I find SunPower systems wake up and go to bed much sooner than lets say a sharp. Sanyo have the highest temp coefficient the cost is higher than all panels. SunPower comes in #2. During cloudy or hazy days SunPower generates more kWh's. I would agree efficiency only matters in certain conditions but when it comes to electrical generation I find SunPower generates the most. We have installed over 500kW worth of Solar and that has been all the above mentioned. It's funny to hear people say well thier "positive grounded" as if that means something bad. This doesn't prolong the install process what so ever and its done because to discharge static charge. Another thing with SunPower is all other panels have an instant power degration between 2-5 percent once exposed to the sun. SunPower doesn't have this problem due to the doping process of the cells.

Most panel manufactures actual PV cells come from the same place China or QCells. SunPower make thier own and Sanyo have both anomorphus and crystaline structure. Keep im mind these systems can last between 20-50 years is it worth skimping a few thousand dollars. I mean in the end your going to get paid back and thensome in accumulated savings.

I am not saying SunPower is the best in the World what I am saying is that they are definitly high quality panels with actual data to back it up. When looking for the best anything take the word of someone that actually has the product not people who think they know whats best. Dont see any SunPower dealers or owners giving feedback on a product they actually sell or own. Other than myself.

Facts about SunPower:
10 Year Workmanship Warranty/25 Output...Evergreen 5....Sanyo/Kyocera/Sharp 2 Years Workmanship

US Based but manufactures cells in Phillipines....they pay taxes in US

Only Business is Solar...not LCD, Cars, Cell Phones

Patented Solar Cell Techonology....MOst cells come from same place

Hold World Record for Efficiency

Second place for Temp CoEfficienct Sanyo is the lowest.


Cell Gridlines and Connections on back of cell doesn't prevent sun from hitting cell.

More SunPower panels on residential, business, and utility than any other brand.

Only select dealers can sell not anyone off the street can sell and install SunPower.

[adoublee]

Best Module(s)

I really appreciate those contributing to this forum and was wondering if anyone would have an opinion on the best $/watt meeting the following criteria on a roof with somewhat limited southern exposed physical space (lots of east/west exposure space, but it looks like this is about a 25% annual production hit):

1) Black frame
2) Made in the US
3) Enphase micro-inveter compatible

This seems to really limit my options. From what I've come up with, it seems to be a 180W Suntech. If I were to relax any criteria, it would be made int he US (opening up pricey Sanyo?) Again, I appreciate your input.

[JustinSolarGuy]

Do you have a good line on Sanyo Modules? I haven't been able to find them for anywhere near the price of evergreens. I would love to have them in my hip pocket for those customers sold on efficiency. I saw their product at the Solar power International in San Diego last year and they look killer and seem like they are really well made. But none of my suppliers can get them... at least not at a price that makes any sense for me.

[solar_geoff]

I think Sunpower modules are some of the best looking on the market today (well the black ones anyway - the white ones are the worst possible looking), and even though they are on the upper end of the efficiency scale, I don't think they are really worth the money. I think these modules are strictly marketed toward people who are more concerned with aesthetics than good system design priciples and maximizing production. Usually when we sell a Sunpower system, the customer just wants to pay extra for a prettier system. I definitely prefer black finish on modules and racking, but there are so many other black framed modules around for a lot less $$ and I don't like positive grounding... Sunpower also "wants" you to use their brand of inverters (which are really made by SMA or Xantrax) which is stupid.

As I have said in previous posts, I believe that $$/Watt should be one of your main determinants in choosing a module (assuming you are purchasing quality eqipment aka a well known brand), and I agree with the previous posters who have mentioned the new Evergreen products. They are one of the cheaper modules around... I have used the FA2 and FA3 series and they are great (quality and performance), and look good in black!

Another poster mentioned Sanyos as not very good for the extra money vs. Evergreen... I somewhat agree, although we have seen from the field systems with Sanyo modules making a lot better production in low light conditions. Off hand I don't have the data to back this up, but we have seen a lot of Sanyo systems in coastal areas doing really well on totally socked in foggy days. They also have certain applications where they are well suited, such as small strings in various orientations - Evergreen FA2/FA3 have very large string sizes. You are right that they aren't the cheapest, but they are fairly competetive on price (as I am told by our sales reps) and sometimes they are a good choice, and good Sunpower alternative just like Evergreens. I think that choosing the right module for your application is sometimes just as important as $$/Watt.

[JustinSolarGuy]

I agree, this is a problem I try to point out to my customers. If you sell sunpower you no longer have the ability to try to design a system using the components that will best suit that installation. Maybe in a few applications the sunpower modules will be good, and maybe some people want to pay extra for the "brand" because they have heard the name. But in most cases they aren't the best solution however your hands are tied if you are an installer of their product. I thought about trying to become a dealer then realized that I would have to have quite a convincing sales pitch, stretching the truth, to sell these to most of my customers. I really don't want to do that.

[Roddick]

Sun Power just has the most effecient on the market which in no ways means the best. Sun Power biggest problem is exclusive dealership and installation. If you sale or install their products, Sun Power panels are the only ones you are allowed to sell/install by contract. This means the most expensive in most cases. IMO you want to find a dealer/installer who has no such restrictions and can use any of the above panels.

[JustinSolarGuy]

Thats a high cell efficiency and a good PTC. Plus they have a good warranty and their efficiency is rated at from nameplat to plus 10 not plus or minus 5. I called them and was quoted a bit more competitive price than that. They sound pretty good to me. I might even give them a try. Kind of a higher oc voltage but for many systems that shouldn't be a problem.

[DC Battery Specialists]

I don't know if you saw their specifications on their 250 w panel. They go for around 3.40/watt and are mono-crystaline panels. here are the specs.

Rated Power (Pmax) 237 W
Maximum Power Voltage (Vpm) 30.29 V
Maximum Power Current (Ipm) 7.99 A
Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) 37.68 V
Short Circuit Current (Isc) 8.57 A
Temperature Coefficient: Pmax -0.4% / oC
Temperature Coefficient: Voc -2.1 mV / oC
Temperature Coefficient: Isc 2.5 mA / oC
NOCT 44 oC
CEC PTC Rating 226 W
Cell Efficiency 17.2%
Watts per Ft.2 13.43 W
Maximum System Voltage 1000 V
Series Fuse Rating 20 A
Warranted Tolerance (+/-) -0% / +10%

[JustinSolarGuy]

I have never heard of the brand. I havent seen them in person. My questions would be what is the warranty, what is their CEC PTC rating vs their STC rating. How much per watt. What is the open circuit voltage. Lately I am liking lower OC voltage so I can just use one or two large strings. I didnt see any of this information on their website So I am concerned. Also is their efficiency at least something around 13-15%. Are they thin film? They are american made. Thats a good thing in my book.

[DC Battery Specialists]

what about these solar panels?

http://www.advancedsolarphotonics.com/solar-panels-asp-250w.html

[JustinSolarGuy]

Off grid is right. Dont buy sanyo. You will pay way too much. They use confusing math and try to convince you that you will save because you need less panels. A bunch of crap. Your intuition was right on comparing STC to PTC so you can see that if you buy 200 watts of evergreen you get 180 watts. For about $2.75 per watt (STC). If you buy 200 watts of SANYO you get 183 or something... 2 or 3 more watts but you will pay prob $100 more for that panel. That's an expensive 2 or 3 watts. It doesn't add up. The only savings would be in racking and in roof space. Both of which are usually pretty cheap. If you really want 200 more watts on a confined roof, then look at sanyo but you WILL overpay.


Also others have said it too but...
The word Efficiency doesn't belong anywhere in the discussion of STC vs PTC