APSystems installation

[SunEagle]

To add to this NEC 690 only covers "live parts above 150 V-G" and NEC 110.27 also only covers "LIVE" parts. Plus these plugs are inside an enclosure (while in-use outlet cover that is lockable or you can use a bolt that requires a tool to open) AND are above 8 feet from the ground (in my case) covered by 2 of the 4 different protection methods. So even if these were live contacts, its allowed by NEC as long as they are protected from "accidental contact", "other than qualified persons when energized". Again not energized. And allowed if it was.

But still open to code saying that it is non-compliant. I like to think I know all of the great code out there, I'm an electrical engineer at a large utility, but I'm still always learning.

It really comes down to what the AHJ determines what is allowed or not. I agree with you that it sounds like those plugs will not be energized unless they "see" a working grid and should be ok to use. But as you know the NEC is sometimes funny to figure out what it means and based on my 45 years in the industrial electrical field, POCO's are usually not held to the NEC because they follow a higher safety code.

[Pir8radio]

To add to this NEC 690 only covers "live parts above 150 V-G" and NEC 110.27 also only covers "LIVE" parts. Plus these plugs are inside an enclosure (while in-use outlet cover that is lockable or you can use a bolt that requires a tool to open) AND are above 8 feet from the ground (in my case) covered by 2 of the 4 different protection methods. So even if these were live contacts, its allowed by NEC as long as they are protected from "accidental contact", "other than qualified persons when energized". Again not energized. And allowed if it was.

But still open to code saying that it is non-compliant. I like to think I know all of the great code out there, I'm an electrical engineer at a large utility, but I'm still always learning.

[Pir8radio]

As long as your are describing your own, non compliant system, which ignores several safety rules, have fun and be warned your homeowners insurance will likely not cover any electrical related claims. And don't even think of suggesting anyone else follow your unsafe choices, because those posts will be deleted.

I'm open to someone posting code showing this is non-compliant. I'm always looking to improve and learn. Its not an energized output, it can not be energized without first detecting power the whole point of UL1741.

The usual reasons for the non-exposed terminals on 1741 micro inverters is so they can call them "integrated AC disconnects" in an attempt to save installers money from installing a disconnect within sight of the inverter to meet NEC, they also use it as a selling point.. I have an AC disconnect within sight of my inverters.

[solar pete]

Hi All,

RShackleford your post with links have been sent for moderation. Several of your post have pointed to sites in direct opposition to this sites owners. Links to sales sites OR any site who is a lead generator for solar leads that is not solarreviews.com is simply not allowed. Please stop doing it

[bob-n]

Thank you for the links. When I bought from APsystems, Renvu told me that they would serve as the intermediary / installer for my installation. So that made me feel OK about the first note. Time will tell if that is a false sense of security.

As to the reviews in the second note, you can find some people with bad Enphase experiences, too. So that didn't scare me either. The thing missing is anyone saying good things about APsystems. I can't find any.

I've had a support request into APsystems for 28 days now. The QS1 metering is just plain wrong. Another person here found the same issue. They finally closed my request after 28 days. They didn't answer the question. They didn't give any support. They didn't fix anything. They didn't tell me anything. They only said (actual quote) "This case is a bit touchy" and closed the case. Very strange.

Your first link states that they don't want DYI installers, period. DIY is a small enough segment of the market that if they don't buy from APsystems, it won't affect their bottom line. As a rule, low-volume installers require more support than large-volume installers. So it is a financially justifiable position.

Also, the fact that a low-volume installer is well educated and experienced in electrical matters doesn't necessarily mean that they will be able to do an installation correctly. It involves a specific set of skills and experience. Do you want your cardiologist repairing your car? I get that point, but it's just noise in the discussion. The real fact is that they don't seem to be staffed to answer questions.

However, with all of that said, their disclaimer doesn't free them from liability for warranty or meeting stated performance.

I'm not ready to say bad things about APsystems and not ready to tell people to steer clear of their products. Their connectors are too fragile and come damaged. We can work around that. But if they don't eventually get back to me on this support request, I would recommend everyone steer clear of them.

[RShackleford]

And in that vein (I'd like to put this in the same post, but two links is a no-no) I found some disturbing info in reviews of APSystems at another site:

https://www.solarreviews.com/manufacturers/apsystems

[RShackleford]

I came across the following disclaimer about APSystems stuff. This smells to me of a company just looking to deny warranty claims and avoid providing support. It's ludicrous to think that someone like me - electrical engineer with over 30 years experience, plus a fair amount of experience wiring my home - could not install these units safely:

https://usa.apsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Policy-on-Non-Professional-Self-Installers-WEB_2.pdf

[RShackleford]

It not technically energized until inserted in the receptacle because presumably the antislanding function works.

Good point. I still suspect an inspector would be unhappy.

[bob-n]

RShackleford - #22 in this thread is a post from you with links to renvu. One is the link to the unit of sale of the cable and the other describes the current limit of the cable and how this restricts you to 3 QS1 per cable. Is that the missing post or is there another? If there is another, please resend it. I'd like to read it. Thank you.

By the way, I agree with you and Mike: Follow the code. Anything else adds unnecessary risk. I've never seen a case where it is technically or financially worthwhile to cheat on the code. You might save a few dollars or euros, and might save a trip to the store and an hour, but never enough to justify the risks.

[Ampster]

So you've got an energized male plug ? Not subject to inspection I guess.

It not technically energized until inserted in the receptacle because presumably the antislanding function works. I am not sure it is code doing it that way but I don't know for sure.

[Mike90250]

no, outlets. 240v outdoor outlets, replaced the micro inverter plugs with 240v plugs. Just like any other outdoor outlet. Covered with an in use cover.

As long as your are describing your own, non compliant system, which ignores several safety rules, have fun and be warned your homeowners insurance will likely not cover any electrical related claims. And don't even think of suggesting anyone else follow your unsafe choices, because those posts will be deleted.

[Mike90250]

Did MODERATOR disallow my post containing links to APSystem's thing about DIY and to a site with some reviews ?!?

I did not see it in the queue. Any post with more than 1 URL, gets moderated automatically. Post that link to sales sites get removed, because this forum is not a free ad space.

[RShackleford]

no, outlets. 240v outdoor outlets, replaced the micro inverter plugs with 240v plugs

So you've got an energized male plug ? Not subject to inspection I guess.

[Pir8radio]

Outlets ? You mean junction boxes ? So you didn't bother daisy-chaining the inverters with "Y" cables, you just ran a cable from each inverter to one central junction box and then tied 'em to the cable carrying the total AC output ?

It looks like there's a unusual (if not proprietary) connector) for the AC output of the QS1. Did you buy some of those and somehow connect 'em to this cut-to-length cable ?

Sorry to be dense, but I am still (obviously) totally confused.

no, outlets. 240v outdoor outlets, replaced the micro inverter plugs with 240v plugs. Just like any other outdoor outlet. Covered with an in use cover.

[bob-n]

The top of this picture gives you a sense of what the AP cable looks like. This picture is their dual inverter, not the quad, but the cable is the same. The cable in the photo below is for 4 inverters. You can barely make out one cut end at the very top. In the lower right is a round cap that perfectly seals a cut end. Someone might be tempted to save a buck and use electrical tape instead, but this is better. Above it is a plastic cap that can be used to close an unused three-connector cable. You probably won't need any of them unless you have a large space between panels and have to space your inverters very far apart. In that case, you order cable with extra connectors and get extra-long cable. Above that is the special plastic tool for separating a mated connector pair. In the orange circle is the end of one of the connectors. Note the ears. Those are the flimsy parts that snap off super-easy.

YC600-2018-C.jpg