Grid Tied System - Design

[BillSunGen]

Great, I thought I had made a decision. Watching the video it would be pretty nice if I am doing it myself to have everything wired up before hauling the panels up then just needing to connect and secure them...

[TAZ427]

Ok, but it may be worth watching a video on it

I didn't think it was adding a layer of complexity, and in fact felt that for debugging any issues in the system, it was actually reducing complexity. Being able to see what each panel is doing IMO greatly improves knowing if your system is full operational, and if there something obviously wrong, allows you to quickly diagnose it (or provide information on here to diagnose it.)

As for connection and layout complications - What are they? You've already have done all the work with the layout of the panels, now it's a mater of slapping one PO per panel, in the middle of one of the rails for each panel. Connection complications? They're all MC4 connectors (same as what's on the panel) which when you hear the click, you're done. More than that, you can't wire them backwards as they swap the Male and Female on the + and - to prevent this. All, you need to is plug on the long cables (outputs) of the POs to their neighbors to make up your strings after you've put all the POs in place. Then when you're putting the panels on, plug the panel wires into the short wires (inputs) again you can't mess it up as they're male and female to ensure you plug the right ones into the right place.

For the time being you can just stick the QR codes onto your layout page and not worry about it (just do it in the pattern that the layout itself is, so you can use it when you want to.) When you go through the pairing operation it will pick up all the optimizer in the strings. The QR codes are for you to add to the monitoring layout so that you can look at each optimizer individually, and if you can use a smartphone camera, you can read a QR code. You probably don't understand how simple it is, because you simply haven't done it.

Yes, it is one intermediate step, but I think it makes setting up the strings a bit easier. You can actually see the strings, and count the POs before you ever put a panel in place. Then it makes for a quick panel install, as you're only connecting it to it's PO and not the neighboring panels as that parts already done.

But it's you're system and your choice. I'd just recommend taking a look at it before saying 'No, it adds another step, and therefore makes it more complicated'. Weigh that '2 points of failure per panel' with 'if a failure occurs, you know which panel the failure is on', when if it's a string only, at best you know which string it's on.

[BillSunGen]

TAZ427, I have not actually watched any videos of the PO installs, just seen some layouts. It isn't really the time or difficulty of bolting it onto a rail though, it is the added complexity that I am concerned about. When doing something new each additional step to learn takes time (figuring out placement, orientation, tools, what a sold connection feels like, what order it needs to be done) and adds another layer to troubleshoot when it doesn't work the first time (Two points of failure per panel and apparently I have to track QR codes!, sadly this is probably the hard part). None of these things are really a problem for the second system someone installs. Unfortunately it would be my first. Having now reviewed the installation manual though it does have the SafeDC control, which is a nice feature for peace of mind when working with electrical connections and of course another layer of complexity.

To clarify my intent, I would rather find a good installer that I can work with in the central VA area but I think my situation is just outside the box enough (and there is a limited demand in VA which also results in limited supply of installers) that the prices for full service are more than I want to pay (I attribute that to a risk premium being applied and not greed) and followup dropped off when I asked questions (too hard when there are cookie cutter jobs to make $$ on) which led me to learning how to design a system and these forums. I am handy enough and could (probably) make all the connections to code etc but I am not cheap enough (or maybe I am smarter than I look) and would only plan on doing the manual labor side of things. In any scenario I would have my trusted electrician review, connect, and coordinate with the local power co. I just don't want to pay his rate to bolt panels to a roof, which would probably still be cheaper than some of the quotes I got before.

[TAZ427]

If price is a wash, I'd be doing SolarEdge and Optimizer for the better default warranty and much easier monitoring. If you're worried about PO installation difficulty/time spent, then you shouldn't be installing panels. Installing the POs would be the easiest part of the job. It's literally popping a bolt into the railing, and then bolting on the PO, and pealing and stick the QR code onto a peice of paper. You can leave the QR code pealing and stick until after they're all bolted into place, that way you're not carrying around the paper, but some bolts, nuts, box of POs and your socket wrench/battery operated screw gun. I've seen it done at 20s each, but even at a minute each, how much time is that extra? A lot less than bolting panels into place.

[BillSunGen]

Hi All,

Thank you all for the input on this thread. I have been back to the reading/studying mode for a while. I do not have concerns about shade so I am going to go with SMA Sunny Boy inverters, one 5 and one 6. The two inverters should provide some redundancy in case of issues later (being grid tied this isn't really a big concern though). The second factor is that I may be doing portions of the install myself and adding the solar edge optimizer connections to the racking could mean more time on the roof (a factor for someone inexperienced not for an installer who does this every day). Price wise (in my internet shopping) between this setup and the solar edge they were pretty close so not a big factor. Finally it appears that the SMA could make the data available locally in a relatively easy way. Based on older posts here I think it used to be more complicated than described below so if anyone reading thinks SMA is hard to interface please let me know.

Quote from the article linked here (http://renew.org.au/articles/solar-monitoring-basics/)

Semi-automated data collection
An example of this is how I collect data from my own system, an SMA Sunny Boy inverter with Bluetooth. Once a week I use SMAs Sunny Explorer Windows software to talk to the inverter via Bluetooth and download the data onto a Windows tablet. Sunny Explorer creates a series of text files, one for each day, which it places in a designated folder.

edit: forgot about single quote thing... seems preview does not catch it.

[bcroe]

You are really just ticked because I complemented Bruce and didn't say anything about you. That is
really what you are upset about isn't it? Come on, it's ok. You can admit it.

Oh come on, Butch has tons of field experience on all kinds of PV equipment, my hands on experience
is limited to one system. Bruce Roe

[DrLumen]

I haven't dug in too deep but there may be a way to access (hack) the solaredge data locally:
https://github.com/jbuehl/solaredge

Yeah, that is what I meant by the hook and crook and wedge and shimmy I mentioned. Note that it comes crashing down if SE changes the handshake or data format. They then have to reverse engineer and write the code for the changes or you write it yourself if you are inclined. I don't know about you but my hacker days are behind me. At first blush, it seems a bit too unstable for my taste. It may be perfectly fine but...

[DrLumen]

the most detail and widely understood to be the best monitoring solution in the industry...

Oh and even in the quote you have, he is complaining of the monitoring being TOO chatty on his cellular connection. The Solution that I mentioned is to
ONE reduce the chatter, and
TWO completely remove it from his cellular connection and put it on its own dedicated connection.
Thus completely solving the issue. You are off in never never land on some other topic or other.

Well, that is up to him to decide now isn't it? I would think he would be willing to sacrifice some bandwidth for more robust and near real time reporting. At least, until he sees what to expect for production and an idea of how changes might affect output. All a cell modem does is reduce the outgoing traffic. He still has to access the SE portal to get charts and the like with an added time restriction.

You are really just ticked because I complemented Bruce and didn't say anything about you. That is really what you are upset about isn't it? Come on, it's ok. You can admit it.

I said my piece, you gave an option. It is up to him to decide what is best for him. Us bickering over minutia does not help him, you, me, the thread or this forum.

[ButchDeal]

Your 'solution' just introduces a 4hr delay in an already bad monitoring system.

the most detail and widely understood to be the best monitoring solution in the industry...

Oh and even in the quote you have, he is complaining of the monitoring being TOO chatty on his cellular connection. The Solution that I mentioned is to
ONE reduce the chatter, and
TWO completely remove it from his cellular connection and put it on its own dedicated connection.
Thus completely solving the issue. You are off in never never land on some other topic or other.

So the geek side of me loves the data and the cool interfaces, reporting, and management

[BillSunGen]

I haven't dug in too deep but there may be a way to access (hack) the solaredge data locally:

https://github.com/jbuehl/solaredge

[DrLumen]

Thus prompting my comment

BTW, the Wink2 is local processing if you use a phone on the same wifi as well as other local equipment

I got away from the Samsung and replaced it with the UDI.

[DrLumen]

no he didn't. He stated :

And you should read...

On monitoring, any system that allows direct access to the data is a plus for me. My internet connection is through 3g/4g on a cell phone and most 'smart' devices are EXTREMELY chatty with their network traffic. My guess is that most internet of things developers are on fiber or just plain stupid when it comes to caring about network efficiency (To name specific ones I am looking at Samsung as the worst in my house). So the geek side of me loves the data and the cool interfaces, reporting, and management but if it can't be done locally it probably isn't for me. (emphasis added)

Your 'solution' just introduces a 4hr delay in an already bad monitoring system.

[ButchDeal]

I use a UDI ISY994i/ZW Pro. It is all local processing unless I want to use Alexa or Google home or a phone.

OK but you stated before that you had:

My Frontier internet was down for a few days and the smartthings hub was completely useless. I quickly got away from that and only use it for a few inconsequential things now.

Thus prompting my comment

BTW, the Wink2 is local processing if you use a phone on the same wifi as well as other local equipment

He also said he wants more robust local monitoring so a 4 hr delay and pulling from the internet makes that problematic.

no he didn't. He stated :

as I expect minimal shading, and monitoring single panels was interesting but I didn't give it much value (and will probably be proved wrong but that is just Murphy)

[DrLumen]

Wink Hub 2 has some local control capabilities.

I use a UDI ISY994i/ZW Pro. It is all local processing unless I want to use Alexa or Google home or a phone.

Yes but if you read the comment i replied to, he only has cell phone internet and wanted a LESS chatty monitoring option. This IS that option.

He also said he wants more robust local monitoring so a 4 hr delay and pulling from the internet makes that problematic.

[DrLumen]

That is the crazy thing. It is just a TV, a 'Smart' TV but I don't have anything setup on it. Just how it came out of the box. I had to connect it to the internet to get it to turn on but then blocked it at the router the next day as all my other devices were operating at a crawl. It is amazing how many of the new devices have to have an internet connection to do something local. You want your doorbell to ring? Needs internet. Want to view your security camera? Needs internet. Want to read your newspaper? Needs internet (oh wait I still get the paper so that one works...) Same with the home automation stuff. It is neat, takes a lot more time than I have to setup, but all breaks if the internet isn't available. Makes it a bit fragile. Being able to configure something on a local subnet just isn't something that comes up in regular marketing materials but it is probably out there somewhere.

Right. It's crazy huh? My TV's phone home to check for software updates. My ST hub still phones home or gets commands down from the internet. If Samsung wants to know when the cat water bowl pump gets triggered or I raise and lower my garage door, they will have that info in spades!