Hyundai vs LG vs Sunpower

[J.P.M.]

I wish!

I joined this forum and learned quite a bit in the last few months. Initially I explored the cheapest options - non permitted DIY solution - but eventually came to my senses and went with a professionally installed system. After doing the math, I realized that the ROI on my install is 3.1 year and for most under 5 years. Ever since I have been promoting solar to anyone expressed an interest. So far 3 of my friends went solar in the last 2 months. This month, I just purchased another system for my parents home. No "referral fee" of any kind, just promoting what I believe in. Specific installer recommendation because I've met with 10 different vendors and most of the salesman were less informed about solar than me after 2 months of reading up on this forums. I had several vendors trying to sell me the fact that their system could do "individual panel monitoring" - as if that is a brand new tech and it is so unique to their install. I strongly recommend Sunline because of my personal experience - they paid a lot of attention to details and did everything the way I asked them to without nickel and diming me. Had I had a positive experience with another installer and they did a good job, I would have recommended the same.

If recommending a vendor is against forums rules, please let me know and I will stop.

Understood. It's not as common around here as it used to be, but referral whores can make ~ $500/successful referral and use places like this to play what one former mod called the screw your buddy con. Basically, there's nothing to keep the price to the mark going up by the amount of the referral fee.

You obviously do not fit that scenario. No offense intended.

As for as for forum rules, not my call/job. I'm not in policy or enforcement. For my policy only, I know a lot of the vendors in my area, both good and bad, but aside from suggesting folks stay with established and local electrical contractors, I don't recommend vendors, and I've voided and sent back unsolicited referral checks to vendors when neighbors thought they were doing me a favor and slipped the vendor my name. As the guy in the HOA responsible for review/monitoring PV installs, I'd be in a world of hurt, even if I thought referrals were ethical.

[inspron]

Thanks! When I was shopping in 2015, Sunline was $4 / W and up. I'm happy to add them back onto my short list of installers for my friends / neighbors / co-workers to contact.

Edit: Just for clarity, the $2.40 is pre-tax credit?

Correct. Pre-tax credit. One of my buddy has a more complicated install - $2.70. So somewhere in between is a good guestimate of a competitive rate.

[sensij]

The new (er) DR - SES tariff times making residential PV less cost effective will tend to exert a downward pressure on PV prices if PV cost effectiveness and payback times are to be maintained. It's called competition. Before the new pricing times a kWh of PV generated electricity had a value to offset a bill of ~ $0.31/kWh. The new times lower that to ~ $0.23/kWh or so. System generation will be the same. The worth of what the system will generate will drop ~ 23-24 %.

Almost totally off-topic for this thread, but since it involves LG panels, I'll use that as an excuse to post it.

For the last year or so, as time permits, I've been working with vendors to pencil out a commercial system (includes building a carport) in the neighborhood of 300 - 600 kW, depending on how extensively we build out. Current annual electric bill under AL-TOU-CPP is around $400k, with 11-6 pm peak in summer and 5-8 pm peak in winter.

I'm modeling the 550 kW system as producing around 930 MWh of energy (south facing, 5 deg tilt). The most recent proposal was using LG400's, for $2.80 / W.

If the tariff was locked at 2016 levels, that would be worth around $110k in bill savings, ($0.118 / kWh)

GRC Phase 2 approved the change in TOU hours, as we've discussed. It also authorized a shift of more charges from volumetric pricing to demand pricing for commercial customers.

Under the old hours, but with new demand charges, that was worth about $114k in bill savings ($0.123 / kWh)
Under the new hours, and new demand charges, it will be worth about $108k in bill savings ($0.117 / kWh).

It terms of overall impact, the new hours aren't such a big deal, since the bill for May is significantly reduced by switching it from summer to winter, mostly offsetting small increases in the other months. The change in demand charges is significant though, increasing our bill 10-15% in a way that PV alone is barely able to touch.

By the time depreciation, taxes, etc are accounted for, the 10 year NPV on this (at 4% discount rate) is basically $0. Unless we can find a way to get the price dramatically lower, I think we are about to stick a fork in this one.

We haven't seen as much of it in the forum lately, but I think it is crazy for even residential customers to use financial analysis longer than 10 years to justify a system. I think demand charges will eventually be coming for CA residential customers too, another potential blow to PV cost-effectiveness that simple assumptions like 3.5% escalation in electric cost fail to capture.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks! When I was shopping in 2015, Sunline was $4 / W and up. I'm happy to add them back onto my short list of installers for my friends / neighbors / co-workers to contact.

Edit: Just for clarity, the $2.40 is pre-tax credit?

The new (er) DR - SES tariff times making residential PV less cost effective will tend to exert a downward pressure on PV prices if PV cost effectiveness and payback times are to be maintained. It's called competition. Before the new pricing times a kWh of PV generated electricity had a value to offset a bill of ~ $0.31/kWh. The new times lower that to ~ $0.23/kWh or so. System generation will be the same. The worth of what the system will generate will drop ~ 23-24 %.

[sensij]

$2.4 / watt with 5.5kw Yingli Chinese panels (I specifically asked to be quoted with "value" panels only - its a commodity market) + SolarEdge HD SE5000H (I only considered the top quality inverters as that is the component most likely to fail). Cash prices, before incentives. Seeing some of the bids from other vendors are in the $3 range, I want to be helpful and share with new forums members value options from a reputable installer.

With the recent tariff dispute, prices have gone up and availability of *value* options dried up; so I wasn't able to get the same deal for my parents. Now it looks like only the brand name panel options are available at higher costs.

Thanks! When I was shopping in 2015, Sunline was $4 / W and up. I'm happy to add them back onto my short list of installers for my friends / neighbors / co-workers to contact.

Edit: Just for clarity, the $2.40 is pre-tax credit?

[inspron]

Vendor recommendations when accompanied by their solarreviews.com page are generally welcome. For example, Sunline.

I may have missed it in another thread... what did you have installed, and what did it cost?

Most professional installs do *not* achieve 5 year ROI by generally accepted accounting, but for high users, it is possible.

$2.4 / watt with 5.5kw Yingli Chinese panels (I specifically asked to be quoted with "value" panels only - its a commodity market) + SolarEdge HD SE5000H (I only considered the top quality inverters as that is the component most likely to fail). Cash prices, before incentives. Seeing some of the bids from other vendors are in the $3 range, I want to be helpful and share with new forums members value options from a reputable installer.

With the recent tariff dispute, prices have gone up and availability of *value* options dried up; so I wasn't able to get the same deal for my parents. Now it looks like only the brand name panel options are available at higher costs.

[bcroe]

I joined this forum and learned quite a bit in the last few months. Initially I explored the cheapest options - non permitted DIY solution - but eventually came to my senses and went with a professionally installed system. After doing the math, I realized that the ROI on my install is 3.1 year and for most under 5 years. Ever since I have been promoting solar to anyone expressed an interest. So far 3 of my friends went solar in the last 2 months. This month, I just purchased another system for my parents home. No "referral fee" of any kind, just promoting what I believe in. Specific installer recommendation because I've met with 10 different vendors and most of the salesman were less informed about solar than me after 2 months of reading up on this forums. I had several vendors trying to sell me the fact that their system could do "individual panel monitoring" - as if that is a brand new tech and it is so unique to their install.

Electrical type here, but I hired an installer so that the job would be done very promptly, by
all local regulations, and no paperwork hangups. That worked and saved me much effort.
Anything not up to my standards could be taken care of later.

Individual panel monitoring seems to be much valued by some. Research would probably
reveal that even while the system was near new, most are no longer doing it. Before PV
monitoring came along, we in the country entertained by watching the grass grow. Bruce Roe

[sensij]

If recommending a vendor is against forums rules, please let me know and I will stop.

Vendor recommendations when accompanied by their solarreviews.com page are generally welcome. For example, Sunline.

I may have missed it in another thread... what did you have installed, and what did it cost?

Most professional installs do *not* achieve 5 year ROI by generally accepted accounting, but for high users, it is possible.

[inspron]

Any chance you're in line for a referral fee ?

I wish!

I joined this forum and learned quite a bit in the last few months. Initially I explored the cheapest options - non permitted DIY solution - but eventually came to my senses and went with a professionally installed system. After doing the math, I realized that the ROI on my install is 3.1 year and for most under 5 years. Ever since I have been promoting solar to anyone expressed an interest. So far 3 of my friends went solar in the last 2 months. This month, I just purchased another system for my parents home. No "referral fee" of any kind, just promoting what I believe in. Specific installer recommendation because I've met with 10 different vendors and most of the salesman were less informed about solar than me after 2 months of reading up on this forums. I had several vendors trying to sell me the fact that their system could do "individual panel monitoring" - as if that is a brand new tech and it is so unique to their install. I strongly recommend Sunline because of my personal experience - they paid a lot of attention to details and did everything the way I asked them to without nickel and diming me. Had I had a positive experience with another installer and they did a good job, I would have recommended the same.

If recommending a vendor is against forums rules, please let me know and I will stop.

[sensij]

Based on human nature and probability, and maybe some common sense, and all other things being essentially equal, which house has the higher probability of seeing water first ?

Another example: Assume an area where RSS is not required by code and therefore houses are probably not so equipped. Assuming time is of the essence, what might the probability that (most/all) homes without RSS sustain more fire or other damage because the firefighters/first responders need more care to ensure their safety ?

Based on human nature, probability, common sense, and the actual response of firefighters given these scenarios, there is no difference in how homes with and without RSS will be treated. Even "plainly labeled" RSS requires more thought than anyone responding to an emergency is likely to put into it. Some versions of RSS require manual operation, some operate automatically. Some will drop only conductor voltage outside of a 10 ft perimeter around the array, some will drop conductor voltage 1 ft outside, and some will drop conductor voltage inside the array. Will a firefighter scour the labeling to try to guess which code cycle of RSS was used on the installation? Will a firefighter trust that rooftop RSS electrical equipment melting in the middle of a fire is performing as intended, or will they just assume the system is live and proceed assuming the worst case?

[J.P.M.]

That is a silly analogy. Even if you haven't been hit by a car, other people have. In this case, studies have not been able to find a single person killed by PV electrocution. In fact, many more construction workers are seriously hurt or die from falls, and there is an argument that module level electronics that require separate installation increases the risk to them (more time on the roof, more opportunity to fall), and will in fact kill *more* people than if the RSS had not been required.

Life is a set of probabilities and the choices made as a result of how those probabilities are evaluated and the consequences interpreted. Sometimes there are unintended consequences that were not considered.

One example that may be more than academic: Two houses are burning. Firefighters see both have PV systems on the roof. One is clearly equipped with RSS and plainly labeled. The other is not.

Based on human nature and probability, and maybe some common sense, and all other things being essentially equal, which house has the higher probability of seeing water first ?

Another example: Assume an area where RSS is not required by code and therefore houses are probably not so equipped. Assuming time is of the essence, what might the probability that (most/all) homes without RSS sustain more fire or other damage because the firefighters/first responders need more care to ensure their safety ?

Before passing judgment on something, I've found it's often best to think out of the box or get rid of the box altogether as well as thinking like the other guy.

FWIW, on the probability of occurrence and the importance of things, that is, risk vs. consequences, I sort of look at such situations kind of like of like that of a Dirac function or a Kronecker Delta function in the sense that the probability of a very bad event (major property loss or loss of life by fire/other nat. disaster, being at ground zero for a 10 mile dia. asteroid impact, etc.) is close to zero, but the consequences are very large --->>> infinite, with the (probability) * (consequence) product ~~ == 1, If either the probability and/or the cost of a bad occurrence go down, I can spend fewer resources on, in effect, betting against the probability of the bad occurrence. In this case, if RSS costs me, say, $10 on a $15K install, provided it doesn't impact system reliability/maint. too much, that's a no brainer. If it adds, say $500 to the $15K cost, and/or impacts maint., and aside from, but without diminishing the moral implications with respect to the safety concerns for one's fellow humans, that added cost vs. consequences takes on a slightly different context. Or, another example, if I live in an area that has a high probability of getting hit by a very bad hurricane every 10 years or so , it may be worth a few extra bucks to beef up an array support system (but probably still no "stronger" than the structure it's attached to as a practical/common sense measure).

All part of risk management I suppose.

[SunEagle]

That is a silly analogy. Even if you haven't been hit by a car, other people have. In this case, studies have not been able to find a single person killed by PV electrocution. In fact, many more construction workers are seriously hurt or die from falls, and there is an argument that module level electronics that require separate installation increases the risk to them (more time on the roof, more opportunity to fall), and will in fact kill *more* people than if the RSS had not been required.

Maybe your are right and the need for RSS is not warranted. Still if it meant saving my home by fire fighters or letting it burn I think I know which choice I would take.

[sensij]

I haven't been hit by a car while crossing the street and I am 64 years old. That doesn't mean I can't be hit.

That is a silly analogy. Even if you haven't been hit by a car, other people have. In this case, studies have not been able to find a single person killed by PV electrocution. In fact, many more construction workers are seriously hurt or die from falls, and there is an argument that module level electronics that require separate installation increases the risk to them (more time on the roof, more opportunity to fall), and will in fact kill *more* people than if the RSS had not been required.

[SunEagle]

Although fire fighters are very strongly in favor of RSS, it isn't really clear how the 2017 requirements offer any additional safety (80 V inside the array boundary is not touch safe).

Consider that Europe doesn't mandate any RSS at all, and there is no evidence of any first responder anywhere in the world being electrocuted by a PV system, and it is hard not to be skeptical on this.

I haven't been hit by a car while crossing the street and I am 64 years old. That doesn't mean I can't be hit.

I understand that the rules of RSS may seem strange and unrealistic to some. While OSHA has posted that anything below 50volts is "safe" that is a matter of what the person is wearing and what the resistance levels of a body to ground path. 80Volts may be more realistic as a safety level when it comes to exposing a fire fighter to electricity based on their PPE.

As for comparing the US electrical code with European countries, I would say so what. Some countries just don't care about safety or take a chance that the odds of someone getting hurt is very high so why put through regulations that cost more.

I am not sure what is really needed to protect the homeowner or a first responder when it comes to electricity but IMO the safer the better even it if costs me to install equipment that makes it so.

[sensij]

So the question I ask, is RSS worth the trouble and cost to everyone just to save the life of one First Responder?

Although fire fighters are very strongly in favor of RSS, it isn't really clear how the 2017 requirements offer any additional safety (80 V inside the array boundary is not touch safe).

Consider that Europe doesn't mandate any RSS at all, and there is no evidence of any first responder anywhere in the world being electrocuted by a PV system, and it is hard not to be skeptical on this.