Neighbor experiencing glare, wants me to remove panels or he will take legal action

[inetdog]

Note to mods: I posted a reply to the Australian gent with two links in it; I remembered just as I clicked 'post' that the board admins prefer the http:// to be left off links, but the board software didn't allow me to see the post to edit it (there's a bug where after submitting, the page just says 'working' and doesn't respond to the 'edit' button, and opening the page in another window doesn't help because the post hasn't been approved yet). So, apologies, and please strip the http:// off those links if you like. Thanks!

No problem with those links. You just have to wait for moderation.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks JPM. Not being a resident of CA, I do not know the full details of the Law. Read about it a few years and it left my wondering WTF were they thinking. All states have whacky laws, but CA tops all other states. FWIW my comments are not directed to anyone particular. Just poking fun at CA. On another subject I think you live in or near San Diego? Wished I have known that last March when I was in SD for a full week. Perhaps we could have arranged to meet somewhere or play a round of cow pasture pool. Played several courses including SEA AIR Base on Coronado island. I was lucky enough to obtain access to the Coronoid Island SEAL beach which whacky. On the Navy's Seal beach sits right next to a public beach. Now here is what silly, On the military side of the beach alcohol is allowed, but no drugs or smoking is allowed. On the other side of the fence, the public side, alcohol if forbidden. Sell and smoking weed is not a problem, Go figure.

Anyway I would really would have enjoyed meeting you over a cup of coffee or a round of golf. You and I see eye-to-eye more times than not. I got a feeling we would make good friends. Perhaps Santa Fe next year. I own, or I should say my wife owns a Vacation Rental home. It is really nice once you get inside the house. Master suite is place you can stay a day or two inside, It is large, with a walk in steam shower, all wood and stone floor with under floor heating to keep the toes warm, Kitchen i fairly large with all updated appliances I thought my wife was nuts when she bought it. As you know all the houses near downtown area look like chit, especially ball those coyote fences. Our plans include coming back to the USA using the house there full time. Either than or Prescott AZ

I truly hope we can meet someday and talk about shop and life, We have a lot in common and I am sure we would become good friends given the chance.

Understood (or H.U.A.). Lots to poke fun at and also marvel at in CA - the land of fruits & nuts.

Other:
- Live in zip 92026, on a golf course, but don't play.
- I was at the Del a couple of weeks ago w/visitors. Been to Coronado beach lots. Don't drink/smoke (any more), and anyway, there seems to be more eye candy on public side of the beach down there.
- Santa Fe is nice, been there lots and I've lots of friends from years of living in Albuquerque, but if I had to choose over again, I'd do Prescott or Sedona for long term billeting. NM took a lot of getting used to for me and I never quite made the adjustment all the way. I was sad to leave - prettiest part of the country I ever lived in, but leaving was for the best.
- I may take you up on your offer in a yr. or two in spite of my usual policy of not doing business with non business acquaintances - as long as no extraordinary financial arrangements are involved. I pay the going rate.

As for what we (you & I) may have in common, I'm sure there are many aspects of life we may see in similar ways. I also suspect there are things we see very differently. While the differences may be fewer in number than the similarities, I wonder if those differences would be better described as chasms rather than gaps, and the similarities, while more in number. are more due to life's experiences rather than deeply held opinions or philosophy.

I have a lot of respect for you, not only professional as one engineer slug to another, but because, (to paraphrase the fictional Col. Jessop), you've put on a uniform, picked up a weapon, stood to post and defended the country I love. That's worth a lot, to me anyway.

But, I see our styles as quite different. I've had very productive and quite close working relationships with folks I strongly disagreed with on non working issues, as long as we stuck to the task at hand and stayed professional, we'd accomplish a lot of good engineering, or solve a lot of problems as management (or at least think we did).

I'm certainly appreciative of your communication here - and humbled - honestly. But I wonder if we'd be better off as would the output of this forum if we kept our communication at the level of this forum.

Besides, I'd not want to give Dan K. any opportunity to think we're ganging up on him as part of some cabal of personality.

Best and Most Respectful Regards,

J.P.M.

[DanKegel]

Hi, We live in Australia & 1.5 yrs ago our neighbours had 10 solar panels placed on their roof (which is at our direct eye level - ground floor).

We get approx. 1 hrs worth of daily "blinding" glare throughout the ground floor of our home during the summer months & approx. 2 hrs in winter, upstairs. If you even glance at the glare for a few seconds, it takes minutes for your eyes to return to normal & they sting for quite some time after that. It seriously hurts!. The kids have to eat at the table facing inwards.

In Australia, we have found out legally that we simply have to live with it. There are no current laws & owners can pretty much do whatever they want.

Sorry to hear about it.
(Sounds a lot like the Austrian case I posted about... don't know if international precedents are useful at all, though.)
I looked around a bit and found two Australian articles that might be of interest, maybe you haven't seen them yet:

If the glare is bad enough that it affects eyesight, there may be risk of stumbling and falling;
"The tortious liability of the user of a solar energy system", Melbourne University Law Review [Vol. 14, December '83]?
aph.gov.au/~/media/wopapub/senate/committee/fuelenergy_ctte/Answers_to_QoN/260410_APVALocalGovernmentReportFinal_pdf.ashx
talks about that kind of thing a bit as they stood when solar panels were just coming into use.

Also,
"Best Practice Guidelines for Local Government Approval of Photovoltaic Installations"
aph.gov.au/~/media/wopapub/senate/committee/fuelenergy_ctte/Answers_to_QoN/260410_APVALocalGovernmentReportFinal_pdf.ashx
says NSW rules say solar installations should not create excessive glare or reflection onto any adjacent building, don't know how enforceable that is, or what your local rules say.

Good luck with that bamboo barrier! At least it'll have plenty of light to encourage its growth...

[Sunking]

Thanks JPM. Not being a resident of CA, I do not know the full details of the Law. Read about it a few years and it left my wondering WTF were they thinking. All states have whacky laws, but CA tops all other states. FWIW my comments are not directed to anyone particular. Just poking fun at CA. On another subject I think you live in or near San Diego? Wished I have known that last March when I was in SD for a full week. Perhaps we could have arranged to meet somewhere or play a round of cow pasture pool. Played several courses including SEA AIR Base on Coronado island. I was lucky enough to obtain access to the Coronoid Island SEAL beach which whacky. On the Navy's Seal beach sits right next to a public beach. Now here is what silly, On the military side of the beach alcohol is allowed, but no drugs or smoking is allowed. On the other side of the fence, the public side, alcohol if forbidden. Sell and smoking weed is not a problem, Go figure.

Anyway I would really would have enjoyed meeting you over a cup of coffee or a round of golf. You and I see eye-to-eye more times than not. I got a feeling we would make good friends. Perhaps Santa Fe next year. I own, or I should say my wife owns a Vacation Rental home. It is really nice once you get inside the house. Master suite is place you can stay a day or two inside, It is large, with a walk in steam shower, all wood and stone floor with under floor heating to keep the toes warm, Kitchen i fairly large with all updated appliances I thought my wife was nuts when she bought it. As you know all the houses near downtown area look like chit, especially ball those coyote fences. Our plans include coming back to the USA using the house there full time. Either than or Prescott AZ

I truly hope we can meet someday and talk about shop and life, We have a lot in common and I am sure we would become good friends given the chance.

[J.P.M.]

On the Left Coast commy state of Caliphonie will issue you a fine and charge you to cut down your trees if it shades your neighbors panels. Go figure.

Actually, unless the law's changed, the CA Solar Shade Control Act says if the tree or shading obstruction existed before the panels, the shade and the tree (or obstruction) can stay. In the case of new trees planted after the solar install, they cannot be planted so as to shade more than 10 % of a solar device any day between the hrs. 10 A.M. and 2 P.M., but with boatload of exceptions and qualifiers.

So, for existing trees - those around prior to the solar install - they can stay, don't need trimming if they grow and subsequently shade a solar device more, and can't have removal forced by virtue of shading a newer solar installation.

[J.P.M.]

RE: Neighbor experiencing glare, wants me to remove panels or he will take legal action
p.s. By the way, these said panels "do have" anti reflective coating! What a joke.

The purpose of the ARC, which is to enhance device performance, is applied to semi transparent materials, and usually works either as an interference coating with a thickness of approx. pi/4 of the dominant or chosen incoming wavelength, or as having an index of refraction close to the geometric mean of the indices of refraction of the glazing and air, or, both mechanisms are employed. Glare may be reduced because more (but by no means all) of the incident radiation is transmitted meaning less is "available" for reflection. Glare from a panel that's been coated with an ARC may be perceived as reduced a bit compared to an uncoated panel - how much ?? - but that's not the main purpose of the ARC.

For all semi transparent materials with surfaces that have specular reflection properties, whether they have ARC's or not, the higher the incidence angle of the beam portion of the solar radiation, the higher the %age will be of reflected beam will be as f(index of refraction). The surface coated with an ARC will probably have less reflection, but because the ARC will not be as effective at higher incidence angles than when the irradiance is more normal to the surface, there may well be significant glare.

Hard to give numbers, but without the ARC, the reflected radiation would most likely be worse than it is.

Your situation sucks. Similar circumstances will likely become more common. That may mean some relief may be in the offing in the future.

[Sunking]

p.s. By the way, these said panels "do have" anti reflective coating! What a joke.

On the Left Coast commy state of Caliphonie will issue you a fine and charge you to cut down your trees if it shades your neighbors panels. Go figure.

[Blinded]

RE: Neighbor experiencing glare, wants me to remove panels or he will take legal action

Hi, We live in Australia & 1.5 yrs ago our neighbours had 10 solar panels placed on their roof (which is at our direct eye level - ground floor).

We get approx. 1 hrs worth of daily "blinding" glare throughout the ground floor of our home during the summer months & approx. 2 hrs in winter, upstairs. If you even glance at the glare for a few seconds, it takes minutes for your eyes to return to normal & they sting for quite some time after that. It seriously hurts!. The kids have to eat at the table facing inwards.

In Australia, we have found out legally that we simply have to live with it. There are no current laws & owners can pretty much do whatever they want.
We had no choice but to plant 4m high messy bamboo to try & stop the glare. We have fence height restrictions!.
It's still thickening slowly. This is all so wrong......

p.s. By the way, these said panels "do have" anti reflective coating! What a joke.

[Amy@altE]

I'm curious the outcome of this original post. Sandaboy, are you still out there? Was it resolved?

[J.P.M.]

The panels have an anti reflective coating on them, so there shouldn't be much glare to begin with.
Claiming "psychological harm" from glare is just stupid. Are you going to sue the sun because it shines in your windows?

ARC coatings generally become less effective as the angle of incidence increases. This is partly because the wavelength of the reflected irradiance, particularly at large(r) angles of incidence is different than the wavelength range that most ARC's are designed and assumed to be most needed and most effective.

[bcroe]

So now, we need an anti-glare rating for panels. Bet a coating won't last 20 years. Bruce Roe

[emartin00]

The panels have an anti reflective coating on them, so there shouldn't be much glare to begin with.
Claiming "psychological harm" from glare is just stupid. Are you going to sue the sun because it shines in your windows?

[bcroe]

You would think, a mfr would come up with panels that don't have much glare; absorb most of the light. Is that idea
in direct conflict with efficiency? Bruce Roe

[DanKegel]

Another data point, perhaps:

This is a bit far afield, but last week in Austria there was a newspaper article about
a complaint about glare from a house's solar panels which supposedly succeeded;
the panels are going to have to be tilted or moved to eliminate the glare.
The defendant said the neighbor was affected by glare two two-week periods a year for at most half an hour a day, and that lowering blinds would take care of it;
the courts disagreed, said it could last for three to five hours / day, and that even drapes wouldn't prevent the psychological harm or the danger of stumbling on steps after being exposed to glare.

The story had no pictures nor an address, and I couldn't find any more details.
tt.com/panorama/verbrechen/12363391-91/solaranlage-blenden-verboten.csp

[8.4]

That could work unless he's got a few rows and the top or middle rows are the culprit. Then it would be hard to get to and possibly shading some of his panels and causing loss of production from them shutting down.