Mythical $3.50/watt installation?

[donald]

.............

So a 8kW system, quoted at $3.50 watt installed works out to $12k for installation, overhead and profit. My DIY install took 80 man hours and I was not fast. I'm sure the pros would run circles around me, but even at 80 hours, that is $150/hr(!) which is double the local rate around here for electricians.

And we know that $2/watt for material is a very high number, considering that the all in price in Australia is <$2 U.S. before incentives. This must mean that in Australia and Germany that solar is installed for a good wage for the owner/electrician, and not much more. It must mean that a single crew small company in those countries is installing 30kw+ per week.

At $500 reduction in inverter prices won't mean much in the U.S.. It is apparently all the indirect dollars that make U.S. solar relatively expensive. Interesting.

The minimum wage in Australia is $16.88 AUD. The average yearly salary for an electrician in the U.S. is $53,000. Less than $30 an hour.

The weak AUD dollar makes importing solar components expensive. But they don't (I think) have the U.S. like tariff on Chinese PV.

I did 3$/W in San Francisco by buying the system myself and getting a GC to do the install.

Did you get solar company quotes?

[SunEagle]

The math I do is $/watt installed- $2/watt for materials = $/watt for installation. $2 bucks for materials covers an average install with microinverters, but not any extras like service upgrades or roof work.

So a 8kW system, quoted at $3.50 watt installed works out to $12k for installation, overhead and profit. My DIY install took 80 man hours and I was not fast. I'm sure the pros would run circles around me, but even at 80 hours, that is $150/hr(!) which is double the local rate around here for electricians.

I believe $1/watt installs will become much more common as incentives melt away, panels get larger (W) and installers want/need to keep ROIs in the 10 year or less range. For the lowest installed price, buying your own materials and paying someone by the hour to do the install may offer the best pricing second only to doing it yourself.

The decision to install it yourself will come down to what you want to spend and what is allowed by your state and local codes. Not all states allow just anyone to install a pv system. Some places require, contractor licenses and specific solar pv certifications or they will not be approved for final connection to the grid.

[Samsolar]

The math I do is $/watt installed- $2/watt for materials = $/watt for installation. $2 bucks for materials covers an average install with microinverters, but not any extras like service upgrades or roof work.

So a 8kW system, quoted at $3.50 watt installed works out to $12k for installation, overhead and profit. My DIY install took 80 man hours and I was not fast. I'm sure the pros would run circles around me, but even at 80 hours, that is $150/hr(!) which is double the local rate around here for electricians.

I believe $1/watt installs will become much more common as incentives melt away, panels get larger (W) and installers want/need to keep ROIs in the 10 year or less range. For the lowest installed price, buying your own materials and paying someone by the hour to do the install may offer the best pricing second only to doing it yourself.

[araghava]

I did 3$/W in San Francisco by buying the system myself and getting a GC to do the install.

[J.P.M.]

Howdy,

I think its got a lot to do with more uniform regulations around our states. We only have 6 states and regs are very similar. Getting the paperwork to install is straightforward online process and in most cases are approved straight away. The other thing i think are our roofs, no snow here in Adelaide ever, most roofs are metal what we call colourbond roof, is way easy and fast to install on. Some of our best install crews can do 2 x 5kW installs in a day provided they can start early and jobs are close to each other

Maybe Aussie consumers learned what not to do from watching what happens to all the sheep.

[solar pete]

So how are prices half in Australia? They do have lower panel prices. But I don't understand the huge difference. Germany is said to be much lower too, although I don't know their prices. There's just no way Germans are "cutting corners" on the quality of the installation's.

Howdy,

I think its got a lot to do with more uniform regulations around our states. We only have 6 states and regs are very similar. Getting the paperwork to install is straightforward online process and in most cases are approved straight away. The other thing i think are our roofs, no snow here in Adelaide ever, most roofs are metal what we call colourbond roof, is way easy and fast to install on. Some of our best install crews can do 2 x 5kW installs in a day provided they can start early and jobs are close to each other

[J.P.M.]

California wages are some 11% higher than the national average while Arizona's are around 7% lower. That's a big difference and could account for a lot of the price differential as opposed to simply installer greed.

Probably. I'd also add the cost of permitting and code enforcement, not that I think it leads to "better" systems.

[J.P.M.]

I wonder, if in some U.S. markets, companies are looking at a the limited number of installs they can be doing before the end of 2016 and the tax credit end. Perhaps companies are not expanding. Perhaps new companies are not being formed. So perhaps supply is constrained.

I don't know what "greedy" means. All companies charge what the market will bear.

And pay no more than the labor market and labor supply dictate. More supply and demand.

[Ian S]

California wages are some 11% higher than the national average while Arizona's are around 7% lower. That's a big difference and could account for a lot of the price differential as opposed to simply installer greed.

[donald]

I wonder, if in some U.S. markets, companies are looking at a the limited number of installs they can be doing before the end of 2016 and the tax credit end. Perhaps companies are not expanding. Perhaps new companies are not being formed. So perhaps supply is constrained.

I don't know what "greedy" means. All companies charge what the market will bear.

[J.P.M.]

I imagine prices vary due to local reasons. If Australia and Germany are half of CA prices Arizona is 40 or 50 cents less and Northern California is 40 or 50 cents higher than southern CA it seems reasonable that some local conditions perhaps wages, insurance, or permits account for the difference. Or we could just say that business owners Northern California are more greedy and people are more gullible than those in Southern CA. In turn the people in So CA are more gullible than those in Az and the business owners are less greedy than No CA but more greedy than AZ. Which finally leads us to the least greedy business owners are over seas and the best negotiators happen to live there too.

Sounds like one plausible way to look at it.

[Riverside Solar]

I imagine prices vary

I imagine prices vary due to local reasons. If Australia and Germany are half of CA prices Arizona is 40 or 50 cents less and Northern California is 40 or 50 cents higher than southern CA it seems reasonable that some local conditions perhaps wages, insurance, or permits account for the difference. Or we could just say that business owners Northern California are more greedy and people are more gullible than those in Southern CA. In turn the people in So CA are more gullible than those in Az and the business owners are less greedy than No CA but more greedy than AZ. Which finally leads us to the least greedy business owners are over seas and the best negotiators happen to live there too.

[J.P.M.]

It just depends on who you go with here in CA. I got a quote from Sungevity at $4.2/watt. I went directly to their subcontractor and went with them for $3/watt.

An example of playing heads' up ball. A little follow up and due diligence also helps the quality of the job.

[scrippsbruin96]

Amazing how much more expensive California solar is. Here in AZ we are doing cash purchase deals at $3.10/watt installed.

It just depends on who you go with here in CA. I got a quote from Sungevity at $4.2/watt. I went directly to their subcontractor and went with them for $3/watt.

[donald]

So how are prices half in Australia? They do have lower panel prices. But I don't understand the huge difference. Germany is said to be much lower too, although I don't know their prices. There's just no way Germans are "cutting corners" on the quality of the installation's.