Mythical $3.50/watt installation?

[tj289]

UKiwis, I'm also in San Diego area. Can you advise provider/installer you used or pm me. So far with the bids I've received (4.8-5.4kw system) the bids are in the $4.5 to $4.9/W range. At those prices I'm not sure it makes financial sense to move forward.

Thanks,

TJ

[donald]

The high costs in California are obvious. The market is responding to what the buyer will pay. Many Californians feel pressure to buy now when they see their neighbors getting PV and hear advertisements predicting the quick end to Net Metering. They are primed for PV. Then, why should a large PV company agree to $3.50/w when their salesmen are lining up buyers at $5.00/w? Local companies won't expand to meet demand because they fear a post Net Metering/Fed Tax PV industry recession.

High prices for equipment in the US? Perhaps that's the market responding to government subsidies.

I think you are right. In California, at least, the federal tax credit may mean nothing for the homeowner. The price would likely be under three dollars without the credit and the threat of it ending. Currently it's pay more, perhaps much more, per watt. And then get most of the excess back from the federal government.

In an undistorted market, solar installers would be expanding their business. Under employed electricians would be moving into the area.

I am in favor of actively encouraging solar through tax and other policy. I am in favor of accurately pricing fossil fuels. But I'm not in favor of using my federal tax dollars for nothing. In California at least, the federal tax credit appears to not add more solar. I don't have another explanation for the numbers.

[gugy]

The high costs in California are obvious. The market is responding to what the buyer will pay. Many Californians feel pressure to buy now when they see their neighbors getting PV and hear advertisements predicting the quick end to Net Metering. They are primed for PV. Then, why should a large PV company agree to $3.50/w when their salesmen are lining up buyers at $5.00/w? Local companies won't expand to meet demand because they fear a post Net Metering/Fed Tax PV industry recession.

High prices for equipment in the US? Perhaps that's the market responding to government subsidies.

Yeah, couple of my bids sales people are saying I need to make my decision fast because of the Net Metering thing. Since what they quoted me seems high, I am in no hurry.
While I like the concept of Solar sometimes I wonder if I should bother with. Yes electric prices will go up but I hate the idea of overpaying for something I don't desperately need now.

[lkstaack]

The reasons for high costs in California are obvious. The market is responding to what the buyer will pay. Many Californians feel pressure to buy now when they see their neighbors getting PV and hear advertisements predicting the quick end to Net Metering. They are primed for PV. Then, why should a large PV company agree to $3.50/w when their salesmen are lining up buyers at $5.00/w? Local companies won't expand to meet demand because they fear a post Net Metering/Fed Tax PV industry recession.

High prices for equipment in the US? Perhaps that's the market responding to government subsidies.

[gugy]

I'm in SD and I think you should be able to do better. I signed up last week with a small Company that had good reviews. My PV system will be around 5.85 KW with Kyocera Panels and a SMA Inverter. Included is a sub-panel and a 240V outlet for my EV. My total cost before rebates is $3.23 per W.

That sound good. Yeah, I will shop around. I just want to make sure whoever I pick to install it will be around down the road in case the panels have issues and they can honor the warranty replacing it.

[UkiwiS]

What would be a fair price to pay for a 4.6KW system with quality brand panels and all included (installation) in San Diego area?
I have been getting quotes on the $18k to $20k range and wondering if this is a fair price.
Also I need a new exterior electric panel that I hear is an average of $1200 to $1800 installed.

Thanks for any feedback!

I'm in SD and I think you should be able to do better. I signed up last week with a small Company that had good reviews. My PV system will be around 5.85 KW with Kyocera Panels and a SMA Inverter. Included is a sub-panel and a 240V outlet for my EV. My total cost before rebates is $3.23 per W.

[gugy]

What would be a fair price to pay for a 4.6KW system with quality brand panels and all included (installation) in San Diego area?
I have been getting quotes on the $18k to $20k range and wondering if this is a fair price.
Also I need a new exterior electric panel that I hear is an average of $1200 to $1800 installed.

Thanks for any feedback!

[SunEagle]

On current non solar equipment: How bad the screwing is varies. Perhaps less than in the past, but, IMO, not due to more informed or knowledgeable users. I'd suggest most U.S. homeowners have little knowledge or concern about how oversized most of their HVAC equip. is relative to any remotely anticipated need, or how poorly a lot of HVAC distribution sys. are done - I wouldn't use the term design. That it has been and still is common and accepted (or unmentioned) practice does not make it a good situation.

A lot of the big energy savings as a response to the early energy crunches of the '70's came from fixing/improving the old systems put together in the days of cheap energy - savings of that sort were the low hanging fruit. Things have changed some since then, but most systems today are still lacking. A lot of the equipment is better to the point of overkill maybe, with perhaps unnecessary complexity adding to maint. costs, but still generally oversized, impairing the cost effectiveness. Most users are still clueless.

For a lot of electrical equipment building it bigger does not take into account the amount of losses from lower efficiency and the high costs associate with running that equipment.

Over sizing transformers is another area where there is a lot of losses and costs to the owner. On average most 208/120v distribution transformers are loaded only about 10 to 15% even though their maximum efficiency is designed around a 35% loading. The efficiency of transformer starts to drops like a rock any where below 20% loading.

[J.P.M.]

It's early in what is really a new type of home appliance business. Who gets screwed today on a home furnace install? Only people buying at the lowest price from an unknown vendor. There nothing complex about installing solar compared to other trades. The truly hard part is done by the component manufacturers.

Currently homeowners aren't knowledgeable, and installers are relatively inexperienced. Residential solar will settle into a business where the top skill level is "residential electrician". That skill is at the lower mid range of tradesmen. Decent money will probably be made by small companies with good business practices that are located in areas of decent demand.

I'm sure there are solar installers in Australia making money. Those profitable businesses have high customer referral at no cost, they are efficient on the install, and they make few mistakes that need correction/re-inspection.

On current non solar equipment: How bad the screwing is varies. Perhaps less than in the past, but, IMO, not due to more informed or knowledgeable users. I'd suggest most U.S. homeowners have little knowledge or concern about how oversized most of their HVAC equip. is relative to any remotely anticipated need, or how poorly a lot of HVAC distribution sys. are done - I wouldn't use the term design. That it has been and still is common and accepted (or unmentioned) practice does not make it a good situation.

A lot of the big energy savings as a response to the early energy crunches of the '70's came from fixing/improving the old systems put together in the days of cheap energy - savings of that sort were the low hanging fruit. Things have changed some since then, but most systems today are still lacking. A lot of the equipment is better to the point of overkill maybe, with perhaps unnecessary complexity adding to maint. costs, but still generally oversized, impairing the cost effectiveness. Most users are still clueless.

[donald]

With apologies to professional and ethical vendors, given that data and what I see as people's self induced ignorance, IMO, most folks have no idea how badly they are allowing themselves to get screwed (or actually, doing it to themselves). But, not my money/property/life.

It's early in what is really a new type of home appliance business. Who gets screwed today on a home furnace install? Only people buying at the lowest price from an unknown vendor. There nothing complex about installing solar compared to other trades. The truly hard part is done by the component manufacturers.

Currently homeowners aren't knowledgeable, and installers are relatively inexperienced. Residential solar will settle into a business where the top skill level is "residential electrician". That skill is at the lower mid range of tradesmen. Decent money will probably be made by small companies with good business practices that are located in areas of decent demand.

I'm sure there are solar installers in Australia making money. Those profitable businesses have high customer referral at no cost, they are efficient on the install, and they make few mistakes that need correction/re-inspection.

[J.P.M.]

Of course, but Germany is said to be be 40% below the U.S. average. While Germany may have streamlined permit and inspection portion, the overhead placed on the business owner certainly isn't less than the U.S. Almost everything is more expensive in Germany compared to the U.S. Yet solar is much cheaper?

I think customer acquisition must cost considerably less in Australia and Germany. I expect those homeowners are using know, local companies. Perhaps the large installers in the U.S. have distorted the market in complex ways. Established, local tradesmen are always busy as long as the economy hasn't completely tank. Who uses a large company to replace the furnace?

The high cost of solar in the U.S. attracts large company like NRG energy to enter the install business. I don't see how in Australia or Germany a large company with large company overhead can enter that side of the business.

I'd also suggest that part of the diff. U.S. to other countries is that residents of other countries aren't as profligate or perhaps not as ignorant of their use of energy. That may have some bearing on supply/demand. The ignorance part may also make selling in the U.S. an easier task.

[solarix]

Oh ya, how could I forget the cost of permitting? (the biggest source of stress in my life) I try to block it out of my mind I guess. Of course, if the average Joe tried to get a permit though themselves - they would really be stressed out. (I see these poor souls all the time down at the build dept. getting lectured). I just hope and pray for the Sunshot initiative.

[donald]

There is a huge difference in the cost of me installing a system for myself and me installing a system for you. The overhead costs on being in business are tremendous, Being licensed, bonded, insured, trained, certified, educated, workman's comp'd, employment taxed, income taxed, sales taxed, business taxed, advertizing, promotions, referral fees,

Of course, but Germany is said to be be 40% below the U.S. average. While Germany may have streamlined permit and inspection portion, the overhead placed on the business owner certainly isn't less than the U.S. Almost everything is more expensive in Germany compared to the U.S. Yet solar is much cheaper?

I think customer acquisition must cost considerably less in Australia and Germany. I expect those homeowners are using know, local companies. Perhaps the large installers in the U.S. have distorted the market in complex ways. Established, local tradesmen are always busy as long as the economy hasn't completely tank. Who uses a large company to replace the furnace?

The high cost of solar in the U.S. attracts large company like NRG energy to enter the install business. I don't see how in Australia or Germany a large company with large company overhead can enter that side of the business.

[J.P.M.]

There is a huge difference in the cost of me installing a system for myself and me installing a system for you. The overhead costs on being in business are tremendous, Being licensed, bonded, insured, trained, certified, educated, workman's comp'd, employment taxed, income taxed, sales taxed, business taxed, advertizing, promotions, referral fees, (did you know that SolarCity pays well over $10.00/click for Google adwords), etc, etc, etc..... I tried for a while to offer free classes around here (one night a week only) just to help people that want to go solar but can only afford DIY sweat equity - but got very poor response. People would rather pay double to have us do it for them.
That being said, I'm still amazed how the going rate in California seems to be over $3.50/watt. We are well below $3.00 in my area. Bottom line is you charge what the market will bear. All the states with booming solar businesses are the ones with high electric rates.
Here in Arizona, we have the best sunshine in the country, and yet the utility rates are low, the Utilities are very aggressive, and the big solar companies are pulling out.

Big +1 on selling to the market.

Also, somewhat similar, A few years ago, I wrote several articles in my comm. newspaper about what residents might consider if they were thinking about solar energy, adding my contact info for questions/comments. I had a total of 4 calls - 2 seeking confirmation that the arrays they purchased prior to publication were a great idea, and 2 telling me to go to hell. So far, there are 66 solar arrays (and counting) on roofs in a 550 home HOA 's. I'm of the opinion that most all of them are not cost effective. Since I do the review and recommendations for/to the Arch. Rev. Comm., I've got access to the data relating to equipment and cost.

With apologies to professional and ethical vendors, given that data and what I see as people's self induced ignorance, IMO, most folks have no idea how badly they are allowing themselves to get screwed (or actually, doing it to themselves). But, not my money/property/life.

[solarix]

There is a huge difference in the cost of me installing a system for myself and me installing a system for you. The overhead costs on being in business are tremendous, Being licensed, bonded, insured, trained, certified, educated, workman's comp'd, employment taxed, income taxed, sales taxed, business taxed, advertizing, promotions, referral fees, (did you know that SolarCity pays well over $10.00/click for Google adwords), etc, etc, etc..... I tried for a while to offer free classes around here (one night a week only) just to help people that want to go solar but can only afford DIY sweat equity - but got very poor response. People would rather pay double to have us do it for them.
That being said, I'm still amazed how the going rate in California seems to be over $3.50/watt. We are well below $3.00 in my area. Bottom line is you charge what the market will bear. All the states with booming solar businesses are the ones with high electric rates.
Here in Arizona, we have the best sunshine in the country, and yet the utility rates are low, the Utilities are very aggressive, and the big solar companies are pulling out.