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  • J.P.M.
    replied
    After certain common sense criteria, quality is sometimes a difficult and elusive thing to define on an absolute basis. It often depends on the application and the person defining quality. Robust construction is certainly one criterion. Reliability is another. But at what cost ? A panel that will never fail and never degrade over the years, even when dropped from a 20 storey building may have great quality as defined by some, but if it's a maintenance or installation nightmare for some reason, the cost is outrageous, or it's heavier than a dead minister, or it's a PITA to monitor, it may fail the quality sniff test in some other circles.

    S.P. is good stuff. So is Kyocera. So are lots of others, especially since panels are maturing into a commodity type of product.

    At this time it may well be that most panels, once in stalled, will probably last longer than most folks will own them. I bet a lot of folks would think that long enough. Same for maintenance. Hitting an array with a hose 1X in a while is about as much maint. as most panels will ever see and at this point in the product history saga it looks like that may be enough.

    I put about as much faith in "surveys" done by self proclaimed "authoritative" sources (and usually crammed, BTW, with ads for products they claim, or at least imply to be, unbiased about) claiming one product better than another on a "quality" scale, usually of their own choosing, as I do in unvetted and unverifiable "reviews" from users - Angie's list/Craig's list etc, filled with useless and irrelevant non information allegedly written by users, most of whom don't know the difference between a kW and a kWh. That is, some but not much.

    Quality, like beauty is often in the eye of the beholder.

    Leave a comment:


  • ButchDeal
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking
    Still playing games with numbers. Kyocera makes 330 watt panels.
    of course that is an 80 cell module, so not really more efficient just larger.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by Ian S
    I seriously doubt you can back up the extraordinary claim that SunPower is lower quality than Kyocera.
    Quit being stupid Ian. It is very easy to look up.

    They are certified by Australia Government to have the highest average output of any panel. You put up a 100 watt Kyocera panel up next to a 100 watt SP, and the Kyocera wil generate more power in a day. In addition one of the very few panels with a IEC61701 Ed.2 Severity 6 (Salt Mist Corrosion Test) certification. They are in front of SP in about every industry test there is. It is no contest. Kyocera is #1 peer rated in the world. SP is just the most expensive.

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  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by drmtesta
    I think what he said was the Kyoceras were 250, but the SPs were about 330. Is it possible they produce more wattage?
    Still playing games with numbers. Kyocera makes 330 watt panels.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by HX_Guy
    Maybe I'm not reading that right but what you're saying is not accurate.

    A SunPower panel WILL produce more given the same roof space/amount of panels.
    That is what I said. SP efficiency is 21% and Kyocera is 18%. A 300 watt panel is a 300 watt panel SP 300 watt panel will be slightly smaller and more expensive.

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  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by HX_Guy
    Maybe I'm not reading that right but what you're saying is not accurate.

    A SunPower panel WILL produce more given the same roof space/amount of panels.

    For example, a SunPower E20-327 is 61" x 41" and has a rating of 327W. A competitor panel in roughly the same size (65" x 39" is a pretty standard panel size) will typically only do 250W - 275W or so. So if you have say 170 Sq Ft of roof space to work with, you could fit 10 SP panels, or 3,270W.
    With a different panel, it would still be 10 panels but now it's only 2,500W - 2,750W. And to reach the same 3,270W, you'd need 12-13 panels of the competitor.

    So yes, SunPower packs more power into a smaller footprint. But that's really only an advantage if you are limited on space. If you have the space there really isn't an advantage because SP so overpriced in a way that's its actually cheaper to buy more of the competitor panels vs buying the SP panels.
    As apractical matter, it is the (electrical) size of the array rather than the output of each panel.

    S.P. has a smaller "footprint", or greater "Watts per sq. ft."

    If you are cramped for space, your money will be better utilized by spending more of it reducing the load, thus reducing the required size of the array, thus eliminating the need for expensive S.P. panels and thus allowing you to go with less expensive panels (that have a slightly larger footprint or lower "Watts per sq. ft.") but still fit in the allowable space. Reduce your load about 20%.

    If you are not cramped for space, buying S.P. leaves a boatload of money on the table that may not need to be spent to achieve the desired outcome.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by drmtesta
    Good information, thanks. Just reading Solar for Dummies. Our energy audit is on Thursday. It sounds like there is time to see the impact of a new whole house fan, pool pump and maybe LED lights before making the plunge. I'll keep reading!
    Spend most of your time on the chapters at the beginning dealing with conservation and load reduction.

    Leave a comment:


  • drmtesta
    replied
    Originally posted by HX_Guy
    Maybe I'm not reading that right but what you're saying is not accurate.

    A SunPower panel WILL produce more given the same roof space/amount of panels.

    For example, a SunPower E20-327 is 61" x 41" and has a rating of 327W. A competitor panel in roughly the same size (65" x 39" is a pretty standard panel size) will typically only do 250W - 275W or so. So if you have say 170 Sq Ft of roof space to work with, you could fit 10 SP panels, or 3,270W.
    With a different panel, it would still be 10 panels but now it's only 2,500W - 2,750W. And to reach the same 3,270W, you'd need 12-13 panels of the competitor.

    So yes, SunPower packs more power into a smaller footprint. But that's really only an advantage if you are limited on space. If you have the space there really isn't an advantage because SP so overpriced in a way that's its actually cheaper to buy more of the competitor panels vs buying the SP panels.
    Thanks. . .that makes sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian S
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking
    SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera.
    I seriously doubt you can back up the extraordinary claim that SunPower is lower quality than Kyocera.

    Leave a comment:


  • HX_Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking
    Your salesman is telling you half truths. SP panels DO NOT produce 30% more energy for a given area. They produce roughly 10% more for a given area. It does not take more panels if you used Kyocera panels. It just a little larger area. A 250 watt panel is a 250 watt panel no matter who makes it. What is different is a SP 250 watt panel is roughly 8 to 10% smaller in physical size.

    So if your roof or wherever you install them has the room, then the only difference is SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera. Your salesman interest lies with his comission on the sale. He and his company make more money off you selling you SP panels.
    Maybe I'm not reading that right but what you're saying is not accurate.

    A SunPower panel WILL produce more given the same roof space/amount of panels.

    For example, a SunPower E20-327 is 61" x 41" and has a rating of 327W. A competitor panel in roughly the same size (65" x 39" is a pretty standard panel size) will typically only do 250W - 275W or so. So if you have say 170 Sq Ft of roof space to work with, you could fit 10 SP panels, or 3,270W.
    With a different panel, it would still be 10 panels but now it's only 2,500W - 2,750W. And to reach the same 3,270W, you'd need 12-13 panels of the competitor.

    So yes, SunPower packs more power into a smaller footprint. But that's really only an advantage if you are limited on space. If you have the space there really isn't an advantage because SP so overpriced in a way that's its actually cheaper to buy more of the competitor panels vs buying the SP panels.

    Leave a comment:


  • drmtesta
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking
    Your salesman is telling you half truths. SP panels DO NOT produce 30% more energy for a given area. They produce roughly 10% more for a given area. It does not take more panels if you used Kyocera panels. It just a little larger area. A 250 watt panel is a 250 watt panel no matter who makes it. What is different is a SP 250 watt panel is roughly 8 to 10% smaller in physical size.

    So if your roof or wherever you install them has the room, then the only difference is SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera. Your salesman interest lies with his comission on the sale. He and his company make more money off you selling you SP panels.
    I think what he said was the Kyoceras were 250, but the SPs were about 330. Is it possible they produce more wattage? They are Sun Power SPR-327NE-WHT-D panels and 2 SMA America SB5000TL-US (240V) inverters. Sound right?

    Leave a comment:


  • drmtesta
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M.
    It's a free country, but:

    1.) Do not think about solar until you get an energy audit and deduce your use. Any resulting system will be smaller and cheaper as a result. After that get more quotes.

    2.) Are you buying, leasing, PPA or what ? Some, myself included, think leases are a rip off, but opinions vary. They have the bogus attraction of no money up front. Sort of like renting furniture and paying more for it in the long run. Hero avoids the lease trap and is better than a lot of financing methods, but, again, walk in with your eyes open and know that while viable, the fine print , fees, etc., take some of the bloom off the lily (like a possible "service fee" of ~ 5-6% of the loan amount up front). READ EVERYTHING 2x. How about a HELOC ?

    3.) Disabuse yourself of what you may have been told about "efficiency", OR SOLAR ENERGY IN GENERAL. Buy a book about residential solar energy, or download one for free from the net, but get informed. It is your best and right defense against the screwing your solar ignorance is setting you up for.

    4.) Any well designed system of a certain size, in the same location, orientation and service will produce about the same annual output, regardless of panel type. Sunpower is good stuff for which you pay about 20%+ more upfront. Bottom line: equal (electrical) size Sunpower and Kyocera systems, or most any reputable product for that matter, installed by a reputable vendor, will produce about the same annual output. One costs a lot more, as you've found out, and MAY have a slightly better warranty (that is probably overkill if it's better in a practical sense at all).

    5.) Rates are indeed going to change in CA. No one knows for sure, but the smart money says large users such as you will actuall see their rates and bills go DOWN - yes DOWN as a result.
    Good information, thanks. Just reading Solar for Dummies. Our energy audit is on Thursday. It sounds like there is time to see the impact of a new whole house fan, pool pump and maybe LED lights before making the plunge. I'll keep reading!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by drmtesta
    The sales guy said the SP produce about 30% solar energy.
    Your salesman is telling you half truths. SP panels DO NOT produce 30% more energy for a given area. They produce roughly 10% more for a given area. It does not take more panels if you used Kyocera panels. It just a little larger area. A 250 watt panel is a 250 watt panel no matter who makes it. What is different is a SP 250 watt panel is roughly 8 to 10% smaller in physical size.

    So if your roof or wherever you install them has the room, then the only difference is SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera. Your salesman interest lies with his comission on the sale. He and his company make more money off you selling you SP panels.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    It's a free country, but:

    1.) Do not think about solar until you get an energy audit and deduce your use. Any resulting system will be smaller and cheaper as a result. After that get more quotes.

    2.) Are you buying, leasing, PPA or what ? Some, myself included, think leases are a rip off, but opinions vary. They have the bogus attraction of no money up front. Sort of like renting furniture and paying more for it in the long run. Hero avoids the lease trap and is better than a lot of financing methods, but, again, walk in with your eyes open and know that while viable, the fine print , fees, etc., take some of the bloom off the lily (like a possible "service fee" of ~ 5-6% of the loan amount up front). READ EVERYTHING 2x. How about a HELOC ?

    3.) Disabuse yourself of what you may have been told about "efficiency", OR SOLAR ENERGY IN GENERAL. Buy a book about residential solar energy, or download one for free from the net, but get informed. It is your best and right defense against the screwing your solar ignorance is setting you up for.

    4.) Any well designed system of a certain size, in the same location, orientation and service will produce about the same annual output, regardless of panel type. Sunpower is good stuff for which you pay about 20%+ more upfront. Bottom line: equal (electrical) size Sunpower and Kyocera systems, or most any reputable product for that matter, installed by a reputable vendor, will produce about the same annual output. One costs a lot more, as you've found out, and MAY have a slightly better warranty (that is probably overkill if it's better in a practical sense at all).

    5.) Rates are indeed going to change in CA. No one knows for sure, but the smart money says large users such as you will actuall see their rates and bills go DOWN - yes DOWN as a result.

    Leave a comment:


  • drmtesta
    replied
    Originally posted by thejq
    1444KWh/mon or 48.13KWh/day is a lot of energy for a 2300 sft house. If you are going to make your house more energy efficient, why don't you finish that and see for a few months what the reduced consumption is like. Otherwise, you could oversize your solar system and waste money. Most people here will tell you Sunpower is not worth it.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "we were proposed $4.11 kwh installed and $.15 per kw for 20 years". Do you mean $4.11/W installed which calculates to $0.15 / KWh over 20 years? If so, and it's for Sunpower, it sounds reasonable.

    As for SDG&E net metering, it's not running out any time soon, so don't worry about it.
    You have it exactly right. . .installed price. It really seems like the solar companies are using net metering as a scare tactic.
    Thanks

    Leave a comment:

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