I just had a 8KW system installed by an installer. Now I don't trust them...

[myfriendSUN]

Internet access is trouble-free. I always get +WEB.
It is the powerline communication signal that randomly and often drop from 4 bar to none.

Try to install an outlet that's gets power before or directly from your main circuit breaker panel of the house and use this outlet for the envoy only.
My installer didn't install the envoy for me either.
On the design schematic there was an outlet that gets power from the CB panel directly.
My installer didn't bother to do that according to the schematic. I did have an outlet close to the CB panel.
This is the only outlet that I can get 4 bars so my envoy has to plug in here.
I didn't want to run ethernet cable around my house so I went for wifi and I failed to get it work.
I called enphasy support for help. They were very helpful and I got the enlighten manager feature too.
I can see my panels (almost) live from the internet.
You can always call them for help.

So I got my monitoring working without the installer.

[control4userguy]

piggy-back their junk on top of a set of Netgears? Again, the ethernet side of the envoy (or the internet, wifi, access point, router, client bridge, cable gateway, etc) are perfect. The problem is the notorious power line side.

Correct but you still can use Powerline to talk from one end of a AC wire to another. How does Enphase send down the data? Like I said, I have no experience with this system. Does Enphase embed radios in each micro? If so, that would be about as vulnerable to trouble as installing micro inverters over string inverters. I just don't see the benefit of monitoring individual panels. Monitoring the health of the whole array is where the rubber meets the road. In fact, why take a manuf. word for it? Calibrate an eGauge, TED, etc. and rest knowing your numbers are the closest to a true assessment of performance.

[thejq]

The lines between the Solaredge optimizers and the inverter are DC, and are fairly isolated from the AC side of the inverter that connects to the electrical service panel. With Enphase, the communication is occurring on the AC side of the microinverter, and can be subject to noise that might exist in the house AC circuitry.

Yeah I understand AC is more noisy to work with, but Enphase should have foreseen this problem and solve it in their design. To me it's not a good business practice to have these many problems in the field.

There are many ways to solve the power line problems especially for very low data rate like microinverters, eg. high pass filter to remove low freq noise (AC is 60Hz only, almost like DC), waveguide, frequency hoping, error correction code or some other combination etc. It's a propitiatory system, so they can do whatever they want with it to make sure the system works in all conditions. If people can send Mbps over miles of high voltage power line, Enphase shouldn't have problem with some household noise sources over tens of feet of wire at sub-Kbps.

[sensij]

Yeah I have Solaredge too. As far as I know, the optimizers also use power line to communicate with the inverter. So far I had zero problems. So it must be something Envoy is not doing it right. Not to imply Enphase is bad, but they seem to have more problems than others.

The lines between the Solaredge optimizers and the inverter are DC, and are fairly isolated from the AC side of the inverter that connects to the electrical service panel. With Enphase, the communication is occurring on the AC side of the microinverter, and can be subject to noise that might exist in the house AC circuitry.

[thejq]

You might consider a Solaredge system, the panel level monitoring works very well, no ac wires used for communication.

Yeah I have Solaredge too. As far as I know, the optimizers also use power line to communicate with the inverter. So far I had zero problems. So it must be something Envoy is not doing it right. Not to imply Enphase is bad, but they seem to have more problems than others.

[Bikerscum]

I am planning a 10KW system and want to be able to monitor my system as well and have a vested interest in your outcome.

You might consider a Solaredge system, the panel level monitoring works very well, no ac wires used for communication.

[fun2drive]

I am curious how your choke has worked out. I used to design filtering circuits and choke (sintered torrids) were part of the package for low freq from memory up to 100KHz. Caps above that. I hope that solves your interference issue.
I am planning a 10KW system and want to be able to monitor my system as well and have a vested interest in your outcome.

In my area it is pretty typical to have installers come from 50 miles away as this isn't a populated area.
Good advice by Russ regarding the installer but my guess is you checked this company out too so even due diligence doesn't always pay off.

[derekc]

My city requires the pipes to be painted to match the wall. Ok. Fine, we did it. Then they wanted the pipes on the roof to match the color of the roof. When they came in, they also walked around my house looking for trouble. They checked the smoke detectors, then the CO sensors, etc.
I guess they wanted to make it look like what we paid them was well worth it.

[Bikerscum]

My city REQUIRES the sub-panel outside by the house so that their firemen can cut off the power in case of fire. Too bad my installer used a small one that left no slot for adding even another breaker for the envoy.

My installer put the breaker box outside & the city made them move it inside the garage next to the inverter. Makes no sense, no fireman or anyone else can access it with the garage closed.

There was no point in arguing.

[sdold]

That's what's weird about these requirements. If they pull the meter or shut off the main breaker, the power from the panels [edit: I should have said INVERTERS] disappears, and the power from a central inverter would, too. I don't know if the requirements are based on lack of understanding of that fact, or the possibility that power can still somehow come from an inverter that has an anti-islanding failure, or just a holdover from DC systems with inverters and transfer switches.

What size is the breaker? If you have an 8 Kw system, I think you need two circuits (with two double pole breakers) since you have more than the 17 maximum allowed inverters on one string.

Someone had an interesting suggestion: Double-tapping off of one leg of one breaker and running it to a plug. Technically, I think if they are 20A or smaller breakers (likely if you have two, one for each inverter string) and you use a 20A outlet, with appropriately sized wire, it would work, I just don't know if it would meet the electrical code.

[derekc]

I definitely agree about the sub-panel. I installed mine because my city told me that PG&E needed an AC disconnect. I don't think the Sub-Panel is a "real" AC disconnect, but I didn't know it at the time. It turned out that PG&E doesn't require it anymore (they used to) but when it came time to troubleshoot the Envoy, man, I was sure glad that panel was there and that I was able to add the circuit for the plug for the Envoy. It was just dumb luck.

On the WiFi side: When I was buying parts for my system, there was a WiFi option for the Envoy. I'm not certain but it looked like a standard Envoy with a USB WiFi dongle. I would have used that, but had the incredible luck of having an uncle who had an extra non-WiFi one that he gave me.

My city REQUIRES the sub-panel outside by the house so that their firemen can cut off the power in case of fire. Too bad my installer used a small one that left no slot for adding even another breaker for the envoy.

[sdold]

I definitely agree about the sub-panel. I installed mine because my city told me that PG&E needed an AC disconnect. I don't think the Sub-Panel is a "real" AC disconnect, but I didn't know it at the time. It turned out that PG&E doesn't require it anymore (they used to) but when it came time to troubleshoot the Envoy, man, I was sure glad that panel was there and that I was able to add the circuit for the plug for the Envoy. It was just dumb luck.

On the WiFi side: When I was buying parts for my system, there was a WiFi option for the Envoy. I'm not certain but it looked like a standard Envoy with a USB WiFi dongle. I would have used that, but had the incredible luck of having an uncle who had an extra non-WiFi one that he gave me.

[derekc]

I think all installers should install envoy on the solar subpanel or before its wire gets to the main panel. And they should always put a ferrite torroid on the wire to block off any interference from the house. Enphase should also make envoy wifi capable and if the wifi signal is too weak at where the envoy is, installer should use wifi repeater midway between the envoy and the wifi router (or access point) instead of messing with adding any ethernet over powerline bridges.

[sdold]

Oh, I can't even see the per panel info? If the installer (they can see) don't tell me one panel has no output (like when a tree branch is on it), how do I know? What is the point of buying a monitoring device?

One thing that can be done with MyEnlighten is the "Array" view. It shows the accumulated energy produced by each individual panel during the day. It's not real-time power monitoring, but at least it'll show you if have a panel (or inverter) that's producing significantly less than the others.

The Enlighten Manager per-panel power monitoring is fun for maybe a week (mostly due to the animations), than you'll probably be like me and get tired of it.

There is a lot of bashing here of the data over powerline system, but I can't think of anything better without running more wires down the conduit. I guess you could have a data wire daisy-chained to each inverter, much like the old tyme coax Ethernet with the T connectors on the network cards. I wouldn't want to have ethernet cables on the inverters. Wifi on each inverter might work, but might generate a lot of RF for other routers and devices to deal with, and range would again be a problem. Before I fixed my problem with chokes, I even considered putting a waterproof/dustproof box near the panels and putting the Envoy in there, and running an ethernet cable to my router.

I think the current design can be made to work well with more up-front consideration of the challenges, like using a sub-panel and ferrite chokes. Make RF isolation part of the system design in other words, instead of hoping it won't be necessary and trying to deal with it later.

[sensij]

When you have to install your envoy near the solar subpanel and if there is no ethernet or wifi (if you use a client bridge like TP-LINK TL-WR702N) access there, then one way is to use ethernet over powerline AND THAT IS HOW PEOPLE (INSTALLER?) GET CONFUSED mixing that idea with the powerline communication between the envoy and the micro inverters. A powerline can handle both "ethernet over powerline" and the 144Khz communication between envoy and micro-inverters but they are TWO different issues.

The issues may not be as different as you are suggesting. For example, the TED 5000 mentioned uses a 132 kHz communication signal. Without appropriate filtering, it would not be hard for the two signals to conflict. Homeplug compliant ethernet over powerline systems typically operate in the mHz range, and are more easily filtered. Without more knowledge of the Envoy's built-in filtering capabilities, it is hard to know what signals in its power would affect its communications.