getting Solar evaluated...need some guidance

[Ian S]

That post Ian references is public information. I get that and I'm fine with it. However, after Ian got through bolding all over it, I wish I could remove my name from any association with it.

Fine, in the future, I will develop a separate post incorporating and refining what was in that post and link to that in the future. In that way, you'll be completely disassociated from it. There is clearly an anti-lease bias among some here but not everyone who leases is "clueless" especially folks who make the effort to educate themselves by reading and asking questions on this forum. There are many of us who have done a leasing deal and are happy with the results. Just as there are those who are pleased they paid with cash. As long as folks have accurate information as to the pros and cons of all methods of paying for solar, I see no problem.

[russ]

As I have noted before - I don't like any situation except where I am the owner.

[J.P.M.]

Whether to buy or lease (monthly or prepaid) all depends on an individual's circumstances - financial and otherwise. Leases vary in what happens at lease end. Some provide the option to purchase at fair market value whatever that might be. There has been a lot of discussion about whether it's worthwhile financially for the lessor to go to the expense of removing and reselling a 20 y.o. solar system. And in 20 years' time, it might be a good opportunity to redo your roof anyway so removal of the system might make sense. Buying requires that you have a significant amount of cash upfront then wait for various incentives to come back. If you get that cash from existing investments, then that impacts the overall return on going solar. You also have to be able to take advantage of the tax credits as they are non-refundable. A monthly lease is a 20 year commitment and typically ironclad but you can often see financial benefit immediately. You have to realize that selling your house before lease end may be complicated by a monthly lease. A prepaid lease can work but then what happens at lease end? The lessor gets additional benefits (accelerated depreciation) that the individual can't so, in theory, leasing could be the best deal but in reality usually isn't. Here's more discussion of the pros and cons of each.

That post Ian references is public information. I get that and I'm fine with it. However, after Ian got through bolding all over it, I wish I could remove my name from any association with it. As for the suggestion of a stickie, I think that would be a bad idea as it would perhaps imply and give a legitimate forum to the idea that leasing is a legitimate option more often than it actually may be. IMO ONLY, sometimes leasing makes sense. More often, people who lease are clueless and lease because that's the only way they can climb on the solar bandwagon. They usually get screwed and don't know it. I see it up close and personal quite often. I'll let others have the last word on this portion. I believe it would be counterproductive for me to comment further.

[russ]

The most cost effective solution is always conservation first. Seal your house and look at the insulation - the sealing can be very cheaply done.

New energy efficient appliances are savers.

After all else go solar - you have minimized your costs.

[Ian S]

Thanks a lot peak, I know this is a loaded question, but is there a general rule of thumb for buying a system outright and financing it as opposed to a lease or PPA? It seems to me, buying and owning ths system is the way to go. What's the real benefit to some kind of lease? After the lease terms, they come and rip it off your roof, or they make you sign another lease, right?

Whether to buy or lease (monthly or prepaid) all depends on an individual's circumstances - financial and otherwise. Leases vary in what happens at lease end. Some provide the option to purchase at fair market value whatever that might be. There has been a lot of discussion about whether it's worthwhile financially for the lessor to go to the expense of removing and reselling a 20 y.o. solar system. And in 20 years' time, it might be a good opportunity to redo your roof anyway so removal of the system might make sense. Buying requires that you have a significant amount of cash upfront then wait for various incentives to come back. If you get that cash from existing investments, then that impacts the overall return on going solar. You also have to be able to take advantage of the tax credits as they are non-refundable. A monthly lease is a 20 year commitment and typically ironclad but you can often see financial benefit immediately. You have to realize that selling your house before lease end may be complicated by a monthly lease. A prepaid lease can work but then what happens at lease end? The lessor gets additional benefits (accelerated depreciation) that the individual can't so, in theory, leasing could be the best deal but in reality usually isn't. Here's more discussion of the pros and cons of each.

[prhamilton]

I'd say the pricing on leases is a lot more variable so you can get some great deals and some terrible deals. I think sales guys push the leases because they are always looking for the big score but if you do your homework and crunch the numbers there is a financial benefit to leasing, namely the depreciation benefit.

I'd say the most important thing is to agree on the purchase price. You should see some broad agreement once you settle on a system size and configuration. Then talk about leasing. I found if you don't nail down the purchase price then it is difficult to analyze the lease because they can inflate the purchase price to make the lease terms look better or vice versa.

If you have the cash or can borrow it then buying or prepaid lease will always make more sense. I am a fan of the prepaid lease but understand the desire to own. I actually bought a 4kW system for my previous house, then ended up selling it a year later, I think I got a decent return on my investment but its always hard to figure lumped into a home purchase. On my new house I am doing a prepaid lease, waiting for install in April.

The zero down leases, if you pencil it out basically come out to an effective interest rate of 7-10%(we've seen some deals much higher). You can typically borrow cheaper on a home equity and get the tax deduction. The best way to pay for solar, besides winning the lottery, is to be able to roll it into your mortgage but that requires timing that is not always possible.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks a lot peak, I know this is a loaded question, but is there a general rule of thumb for buying a system outright and financing it as opposed to a lease or PPA? It seems to me, buying and owning ths system is the way to go. What's the real benefit to some kind of lease? After the lease terms, they come and rip it off your roof, or they make you sign another lease, right?

There are many opinions about lease/PPA vs. buy, some of them adamant. At the risk of verbal ambiguity, on leases it seems sort of dichotomous - mostly love it or hate it. However, every situation is different, including yours. More homework on your part will probably clarify it some for you. It's a free country - pay your money, take your choice. Just try to make it the best one as you see it for your situation. See prior threads. Lots of discussion there, some of it heated. As for rules of thumb, they are best for measuring thumbs.

[jlatenight]

Revision Energy out of Maine does installs in most of Mass, they do bulk purchases and have a fairly high volume of work. Their crews are efficient. I would give them a call for a outright installation. Like any company if you want them to complicate it with leasing and PPA, they will immediately go into sales mode and figure out a way to make even more money off you.

Thanks a lot peak, I know this is a loaded question, but is there a general rule of thumb for buying a system outright and financing it as opposed to a lease or PPA? It seems to me, buying and owning ths system is the way to go. What's the real benefit to some kind of lease? After the lease terms, they come and rip it off your roof, or they make you sign another lease, right?

[peakbagger]

Revision Energy out of Maine does installs in most of Mass, they do bulk purchases and have a fairly high volume of work. Their crews are efficient. I would give them a call for a outright installation. Like any company if you want them to complicate it with leasing and PPA, they will immediately go into sales mode and figure out a way to make even more money off you.

[russ]

Still, $7/W is definitely high.

It comes with boy butter to keep it from hurting toooo much

[J.P.M.]

Uh oh...is it possible there's inherently that big a difference in the price of a system between CA and MA?

Not THAT much if any.

[slopoke]

The URLs below are to some posts that talk of Massachusetts prices.

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?14393-Got-Solar-Evaluated-in-MA-SunPower-vs-Cheaper-LG-Panels&highlight=mass

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?10227-Is-this-a-good-Price-for-a-5kwh-System&highlight=massachusetts

[pleppik]

ok, I'm going to call a couple other places tomorrow and get some more info. I have a feeling I'm going to get some seriously different numbers. I really have to thank all you guys for your help with this. This is NOT easy to navigate. You've all been a huge help!!

Good move. Get a couple other quotes.

Also, try to find out where that "estimated production" number came from. There's no details on that worksheet, and that's the second most important number (after the price) on the whole page.

[pleppik]

I don't think so, materials costs are the same and depending on where you live, the labor costs might be lower, I doubt higher. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and our labor costs are not low.

From the data I've seen, there is considerable regional variation in solar prices around the country. California is on the low end, probably because there are a zillion installers and lots of competition (plus lots of experienced labor).

Still, $7/W is definitely high.

[Naptown]

He didn't say I'd be going positive on production, he said I'd still get an electric bill but it would be much less. Here's the actual worksheet he gave me. See if makes any sense to you.

Their after all incentive cost is higher than the before incentive costs here in Maryland.