Double the lifetime of an inverter?

[ButchDeal]

You really don't absorbe too well do you. Manufacturers have been eliminating capacitors in inverter main circuits.
Put it all together.....

[DaveDE2]

Here's another example, this time relating to capacitors:

http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx

[ButchDeal]

I have been in the electronics industry including military applications of electronics for 25 years. Hardened, rugidized, isolated, high power, shock resistant, etc. you don't know we're you are on the bathtub graph, and are making assumptions everyplace.

[ButchDeal]

My inverter already has a fan, as does the CC. it is sealed transformer based, and the fan failed already.
Have you upgraded the fan in your '65 flat 6?

[ButchDeal]

The silicon is the least likely items in an inverter to fail. Solder will fail long before silicon chips. Look at your fig. 2-4 a little more closely. Now take a look at fig. 2-7 of course in all this t is undefined, and specific to the equipment being tested, and general design lifetime. Electronic equipment and silicon chips all have a design or operating lifetime.
There are caps that will last 5 years and caps that will last 25 years (under operating conditions). Anyone with an old 1970 era Morantz or other high quality amplify understands this. They used high quality caps and thus the equipment work reliably well past the 1990s and into the 2000s, but by the 2010, nearly all 1970s Morantz amps need a re-cap.
The silicon chips in the amp will last much much longer. But cheaper amplifiers from the 70's would need a recap by the mid 80's.
If you are within the operating limits of the equipment cooling 10C is going to make little difference in the overall lifetime. Even your documents show this.

[azdave]

We're all shootin' from hip here anyway.

How about half of us put extra cooling on our inverters and the other half leave them as is. Then we'll all check back on this thread in 20 years and see who was right.

[ButchDeal]

to put in layman's terms: you assume that the inverters are operating on the upswing of the bathtub graph. you also assume that moving 10C down temp will double the life, you also assume that this is the same for all fanless inverters.
A hell of a lot of assumptions.
Most manufacturers are going to have the operating range in the lower part of the bathtub graph so as long as you are in the operating range there is very little different.
As I mentioned silicon has a much higher operating range than caps, thus the bathtub is much longer before the up swing.
Another assumption you have made is that you are not a layman and that other are.

[DaveDE2]

Gosh, you are so totally wrong. I've been in the aerospace business for 30 years and we know all about electronics failure rates and what causes them. Sheesh.

[DaveDE2]

Here's one example:

http://servenger.com/Resources/Modeling_Temperature_Driven_Wearout_Rates_for_Electronic_Components_b.pdf

another one:

Look on page 2-19 fig 2.4 here, you'll see that a difference between 50C and 25C causes 10x drop in lifetime for a semiconductor @ Ea=0.6.

http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/en/aboutus/pdf/t04007ce-2.pdf

[solarix]

Lead-free solder is less flexible and does not handle temperature cycling nearly as well. I'm all for getting the lead out, but the electronic industry has struggled for decades to come up with anything nearly as reliable as good old 60/40 solder. And now the parts are soooo much smaller and just surface mounted with really tiny contact areas. Name me any other consumer electronic product that has more than a 2 year manufacturer's warranty. I still maintain that when choosing an inverter brand, base it on reliability, reliability, reliability.....

[ButchDeal]

You must in fact have information before you can give information.

All you know is that you can cool a fan less inverter slightly more by adding a fan.

Everything else is conjecture including 10 year lifetime, and 10c cooling doubles lifetime.

Fact is silicon chips do not care about 10c temp cooling, or heating, caps do, but manufacturers have been eliminating caps on the main inverter circuits.

[ButchDeal]

With all due respect, I don't see that lead free solder has anything to do with it. Lead free solder melts at a higher temperature but isn't any less conductive as far as I've heard. Yes, electrolytic caps are best suited for low frequency applications but they are well known to handle jobs in the multi kilohertz region.

Back to the matter at hand. Let's say an inverter manufacturer warrants its inverter at 10 years. The mfg knows that it will only be putting out for say 8 hours out of a 24 hour day, but that's all the electronics are expected to handle. Now say we come along and cool those electronics by 10C - the life will double. Someone cries foul and says "yeah but those electronics are not being cooled by 10C for the whole time because the cooling system is not cooling it by10C the whole time it's operating". Fine, you'd be somewhat right but I actually measured 18C difference at the hottest part of the day, so I guesstimated an average 10C delta average which I think is reasonable. If someone were to nail this they'd have to integrate the temp and then average it over time. Arrhenius equations hold true.

You guesstimated and were did you come up with the doubling lifetime.
Arrhenius equations do not state a doubling of life, in fact it is about chemical reactions. This would be true in caps but not silicon chips ( not very reactive are they )

[DaveDE2]

I'm not try to get information, I'm trying to *give* it.

Look anywhere on the internet and read about Arrhenius and inform yourself.

[DaveDE2]

With all due respect, I don't see that lead free solder has anything to do with it. Lead free solder melts at a higher temperature but isn't any less conductive as far as I've heard. Yes, electrolytic caps are best suited for low frequency applications but they are well known to handle jobs in the multi kilohertz region.

Back to the matter at hand. Let's say an inverter manufacturer warrants its inverter at 10 years. The mfg knows that it will only be putting out for say 8 hours out of a 24 hour day, but that's all the electronics are expected to handle. Now say we come along and cool those electronics by 10C - the life will double. Someone cries foul and says "yeah but those electronics are not being cooled by 10C for the whole time because the cooling system is not cooling it by10C the whole time it's operating". Fine, you'd be somewhat right but I actually measured 18C difference at the hottest part of the day, so I guesstimated an average 10C delta average which I think is reasonable. If someone were to nail this they'd have to integrate the temp and then average it over time. Arrhenius equations hold true.

[ButchDeal]

You go Butch, keep pedaling SE and your stories. Ignorance is bliss.

ok Dave for a person trying to find out some info from people that know more than you, you sure are a bit of an ass to those that do.
I would suggest that you listen instead of speaking but it is a bit too late for that.

Mod Note: Please avoid personal attacks on other members. (You too Butch)

You still haven't stated where the 10 year estimated lifetime comes from either?

Where are the stats on the 10C temp rise leading to doubling failure rate? This would be simple to prove based on install location latitudes.