Optimizer vs Micro Invertor Question

[Yaryman]

The link complains that the M250 does not work with 72 cell panels. But the M250 spec sheet lists an operating input voltage up to 48V and the MPPT operating range goes up to 39V.
Perhaps I am missing something?

My fault. Didn't make my point very clear.

If you Google "United sucks", you will find out many, many, many, many reasons that United Airlines Sucks.
You will even find videos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Breaks_Guitars

If you Google "Enphase sucks", you won't find any mention of high failure rates of their inverters.
In fact, one of the first results seems a customer who somewhat got screwed over by his installer that didn't include the Envoy system and install it.

If you Google "Enphase m250 failure rates", you won't find any installer complaining about the product and high failure rates.
In fact on of the top results was one I listed where some installer said he wouldn't use them because of reasons that seem to be incorrect or are no longer true.

My point was, maybe Enphase got the M250 right.

On the other hand, maybe there was a reliability issue with the M190, and rightly so some installers gave up on the system.

Hell, it took Microsoft 4 tries before they developed a stable operating system.

BAD - Win95, Win98. Terrible Windows Millenium Edition. Worthwhile - Windows XP.

[deyounte]

m250 for 72 cell panels

The link complains that the M250 does not work with 72 cell panels. But the M250 spec sheet lists an operating input voltage up to 48V and the MPPT operating range goes up to 39V.
Perhaps I am missing something?

Well, that's just wrong. Here's a link to Enphase where that is dispelled.

https://enphase.com/en-us/support/module-compatibility

[inetdog]

The link complains that the M250 does not work with 72 cell panels. But the M250 spec sheet lists an operating input voltage up to 48V and the MPPT operating range goes up to 39V.
Perhaps I am missing something?

[Yaryman]

Both microinverters and central inverters use the same electronic components to do the same function. One is miniaturized for 1 panel while the other is a larger
scale design for multiple panels, but yet they use the same components for the same function nevertheless. One is down on the ground, most likely in the cool shade, while the other is up
on the hot roof baking day in day out in the summer time. Which one do you think has a better chance of lasting longer?

By the way, why doesn't Enphase include labor in their microinverter warranty again?

My Enphase micro inverters are on the roof under each panel. No sun strikes them unless the sun is almost at the horizon. ( rising or setting )
My panels are on the south side of my house as is the main panel. That main panel and single inverter had I gone that route sit in the sun all friggen day.
Using the heat and sun make all the difference logic, I should have gone with micro inverters as they sit in the shade.

I understand the math of having 18 micro inverters vs one inverter might increase the chance of failure for my system.
There is also a certain logic of having 1/18 of my system fail vs the entire system failing.

Were that failure past the warranty of the single inverter system, I would be paying a large chunk of change to fix it.
Were the failure on one of 18 single micro inverters, it might make better financial sense to no bother fixing it.

As for the question about why Enphase stopped paying for labor on their warranty.
My honest answer is it's pretty hard to pay an installer $100 - $200 -$300 to replace an item the costs the installer $100 or so.
Maybe paying for the repair labor was a way for Enphase to gain market share.
That paying for the labor then bit them in the arse when there were more than expected problems with the M190 model.
Hopefully they figured out the problem, and the failure rate of the newer models is much lower.
Do a search for failures of the Enpahse M250. I wasn't able to find any horror stories.

Here is an interesting read as to why this company doesn't sell the Enphase M250

[Jeepman]

They come with a 12 year warrant which is extendable to 20 or 25 years. Price varies based on size of inverter and years extended.

Sorry...my bad. Lol With the new HD inverter I will probably not opt for spending money on the extended warranty and would just upgrade instead. I've had my system since July, 12 years is a long time...then again, 25 years looks good too.

[ButchDeal]

Solar Edge inverters come with a 10 year warrenty that is extendable to 25 years for around $500.

They come with a 12 year warrant which is extendable to 20 or 25 years. Price varies based on size of inverter and years extended.

[Jeepman]

With central inverter, if there's a performance problem with a panel, it'll manifest itself by showing a performance problem on a whole string itself. OK, so with microinverters, you can tell exactly which panel is a problem panel before you have to go up on the roof to do repair or replacement. With central inverters, you won't know which panel on the problem string has the problem until you go up on the roof and do debug.

Wrong... SolarEdge Optimizers (25 year warrenty) show each panel output and allow one panel to be shaded without dropping the whole string. On their monitoring site you can see each panel and watts/voltage/amps etc for each panel also. SolarEdge inverters are way smarter than just a inverter. Solar Edge inverters come with a 10 year warrenty that is extendable to 25 years for around $500.
Also your SolarEdge inverter will be compatible with Tesla Powerwall...if your are thinking that route in the future.

[inetdog]

I'd watch this fellow, something isn't right.

Thanks for the advice. He could just be very terse. Or maybe just working his way up to ten posts for PM access.

[sdold]

Panels are not good.

I'd watch this fellow, something isn't right.

[kellycross]

Panels are not good.

[Volusiano]

You don't see any value in being able to pinpoint where a 3% or 5% or 7% or x% problem is coming from? I will agree that if the system is working splendidly, you don't need the data. If it is not, it seems like great data to have.

I admit that I am a solar newbie... does someone want to share what kind of info your central inverter will, in fact, tell you?

With central inverter, if there's a performance problem with a panel, it'll manifest itself by showing a performance problem on a whole string itself. OK, so with microinverters, you can tell exactly which panel is a problem panel before you have to go up on the roof to do repair or replacement. With central inverters, you won't know which panel on the problem string has the problem until you go up on the roof and do debug. But so what? What's the big deal? The bad panel will still be found either way in the end, and replaced.

Panels rarely ever go bad, and if they do, most likely it'll happen before the warranty expires. So from the homeowner's point of view, problem detected, warranty call made, service call is made and bad panel repaired in the end. So why would a homeowner care to be able to pinpoint up front which panel is bad? That ability is over rated.

99% of the time, you don't care about the data anyway. You may fuss over it the first few months, then afterward it becomes stale and gets forgotten because panels rarely ever go bad.

[Volusiano]

Regarding the DC optimizer vs micro-inverter debate, one of the pros to microinverters (IMO) is the removal of the central inverter, which I think most folks would agree is the shortest lived component in most solar arrays. But, in DC optimizer installations, you have BOTH a local component on the panel (most folks like to point out that this is "many points of failure" model) AND an expensive central inverter! It just seems like if you were going to gamble on a new technology, you'd at least get one that removes the $2k or $3k central inverter??

If you think that the central inverter is short lived, why do you think the microinverter can last longer? Just because the warranty says so? Before you're ready to lap up microinverter's 25-year warranty, why don't you ask Enphase why they no longer include labor in their warranty? Sure, part is cheap to replace, but labor up on the roof 2 times, once to retrieve, another to replace, is where the money is. What is Enphase hiding by not including labor in their warranty? Isn't it because they don't trust that their microinverters will last the 25 years they warranty them to be? If not that, then why else?

Both microinverters and central inverters use the same electronic components to do the same function. One is miniaturized for 1 panel while the other is a larger scale design for multiple panels, but yet they use the same components for the same function nevertheless. One is down on the ground, most likely in the cool shade, while the other is up on the hot roof baking day in day out in the summer time. Which one do you think has a better chance of lasting longer?

And why you said, did SolarEdge do the dumb thing and still use the expensive and short-lived central inverter on the ground if they already have optimizers up on the roof? Maybe because did you ever consider that it's not a dumb thing to do, but a smart thing to instead? Maybe because they KNOW that putting microinverters on the roof is a bad idea, and that using central inverter is a better idea. The real problem that needs solving (if there's shading issue) is to localize the optimizer. Localizing the inverter is NEVER a problem that needs to be solved in the first place. Localizing the inverter is instead an asking-for-trouble problem in itself.

By the way, SolarEdge include labor in their inverter warranty, and also in their optimizer warranty.

By the way, central inverter companies include labor in their inverter warranty.

By the way, why doesn't Enphase include labor in their microinverter warranty again?

[insaneoctane]

Really only to the extent you can have a "solar party" where you show your and they show theirs.

You don't see any value in being able to pinpoint where a 3% or 5% or 7% or x% problem is coming from? I will agree that if the system is working splendidly, you don't need the data. If it is not, it seems like great data to have.

I admit that I am a solar newbie... does someone want to share what kind of info your central inverter will, in fact, tell you?

[russ]

Also, I personally see value in panel-level performance and diagnostics that micro-inverters offer. Let the flames begin....

Really only to the extent you can have a "solar party" where you show your and they show theirs.

[Mike90250]

i'd much rather hoist a 80# inverter onto the wall, than pick 6 year weathered panels off a roof to get to the dud inverter.

Just because they slap a sticker with 20+ years on it, does not mean you will get 20 years on EVERY uInverter, just a free one after you justify that THEIR part broke, and that you didn't expose it to weather or some weasel word in the fine print. A $20 hr laborer is not likely to take good care of your roof and cables.

Any decent GT inverter can give detailed power data, but not for individual panels in it's string. you have to chart and suss that yourself