Northstar NSB170FT good battery?

Rise! Rise! Necro post!

Hello all. I am pulling the trigger and purchasing 8 of these batteries from a local guy selling them at $120 each. Just a steal of a price and they have to last a decent while.

Even if these just last a year, I will be happy enough and will by then have enough income from my business to invest in anything better.

But I would be happy to hear from anyone that may have had more experience with these batteries since 2013 and will be happy to post my experiences with them.

[nat1971a]

It would appear that the people at bruner ridge are conducting a very expensive experiment with these batteries.

[SunEagle]

http://www.brunerridge.com/


The northstar Blue batteries are designed for off grid apparently. (Northstar NSB 170 Blue)

Check the above link for a real life example using 60+ northstar batteries including racks.

I have to agree with russ and Sunking. The NSB 170 Blue claims to be made for multiple cycles and fast recharges but does not provide the same data as a true Deep Cycle RE battery.

Brunerridge even claims that they will be monitoring this battery while residing in the home that it is installed. Looks like they do not have good "life cycle" data yet which is why they don't provide hard specifications.

[Sunking]

http://www.brunerridge.com/


The northstar Blue batteries are designed for off grid apparently. (Northstar NSB 170 Blue)

No they are not. Northstar makes Telcom, UPS, and cranking batteries. None of which are suitable for RE applications. Here is another cut sheet for the NSB170FT battery. States very clearly it is a Telecom battery. It's niche is it is very low internal resistance which means it can deliver very high discharge rates and has no limit on charge current. Exactly what you need for a UPS to provide a very high discharge current just long enough to get the generator fired up to take over, then be recharged very fast so it is ready to go again ASAP.

[russ]

http://www.brunerridge.com/


The northstar Blue batteries are designed for off grid apparently. (Northstar NSB 170 Blue)

Check the above link for a real life example using 60+ northstar batteries including racks.

No place on the North Star site do they talk about RE use that I found.

UPS, and emergency backup yes.

[nat1971a]

http://www.brunerridge.com/

The northstar Blue batteries are designed for off grid apparently. (Northstar NSB 170 Blue)

Check the above link for a real life example using 60+ northstar batteries including racks.

[Sunking]

The description itself is inconsistent, in particular since they use the words "fast recharge capability" but that will not happen using only the Float voltage.

That is not accurate. The current is only limited by the rectifier current limit and the battery State of Charge. Put a 100 AH battery that is discharged on a 100 amp rectifier and it will charge at 100 amps if th ebattery SOC voltage remains below the float voltage with the current flowing through it.

I have many of Cell towers and telco sites with 1000 amp + rectifiers with 1200 AH batteries and up with only 100 to 150 amp loads. Turn the AC off for a while, then turn it back on and the DC plant will go into Current Limit (1000 amps) until the batteries voltage reaches Float set point then the current tapers off. Only difference between Bulk, Absorb and Float is the voltage set point. Until those points are reached the rectifiers are in constant current aka current limit and then taper off. Float charging is safer, kinder, and gentler but takes longer than 3-stage.

UPS systems are for the most part special animals with only Float Chargers @ a rated current capacity on the DC side. Only battery that performs well with a Float Charger is AGM as they do not require an EQ setting. Well I should say most cannot be Equalized. That is one reason they do not last as long as FLA batteries. You cannot take corrective action like Equalize specific gravity and voltage, dissolve sulfation off the plates, or add liquid to AGM batteries like you can FLA. About all you can do with AGM is apply temperature compensation to help prevent their major disadvantage of thermal runaway.

[inetdog]

The limited specs give no indication for Cycle Life. Every clue indicates this is a UPS battery, made for stationary emergency stand by power to be used in either a UPS or small scale Telco battery plant when commercial power fails. For example it does not list any Absorb or Bulk voltage set points. It only list Float Voltage, and states "Float Life of 10 years". Simply put I know of no battery with a 10 year life when cycled every day. Only some Lithium manufactures make that claim but no history to back it up.

The description itself is inconsistent, in particular since they use the words "fast recharge capability" but that will not happen using only the Float voltage. Sounds like either this particular product is new enough that the documentation has not caught up with it yet or they have only changed the name and not how it is built.
If you cannot get the kind of documentation Dereck refers to, I would pass on what might or might not be a good deal.

[Sunking]

firstly thanks for the answers..! exactly ..that was my question.. the lifetime...


Way this question? I'm from south america, Paraguay, here are not many options of battery... and very few for solar systems like FLA..

so.. and the others are used for cell towers, and , I get them new for that price, from some person ... here locally...

Night Angel I understand your situation and I apologize for the distractions. I am not familiar with this battery. The limited specs give no indication for Cycle Life. Every clue indicates this is a UPS battery, made for stationary emergency stand by power to be used in either a UPS or small scale Telco battery plant when commercial power fails. For example it does not list any Absorb or Bulk voltage set points. It only list Float Voltage, and states "Float Life of 10 years". Simply put I know of no battery with a 10 year life when cycled every day. Only some Lithium manufactures make that claim but no history to back it up.

So my advice to you is query the manufacture and ask them to provide cycle life data. Something on the order of Cycles vs DOD chart and see where it stacks up. Compare it to the best AGM made Concord Sun Extender PVX line The chart is on the very last page 40.

[Sunking]

It's not clear from that table and you are twisting the numbers to make your point.

If you look at the Trojan (2xT105) I can say the exact opposite at FLA 500 cycles.

Cycle to 50% DOD AGM = 1000 at best, FLA = 500 cycles. "Not even close."

It is extremely clear and you lost the argument with facts you provided. I used your reference against you. There was no stacking the numbers. I used Best Case for both batteries. If I wanted to stack the numbers I would have used worse case for AGM = 500 cycles, and best case for FLA of 3200 cycles. I also prefaced my statement of using True Deep Cycle quality batteries. The T-105 you reference to is a hybrid golf cart battery, not a deep cycle battery. There is a difference between Deep Cycle and Hybrid. Hybrids have many marketing names like golf cart, marine, leisure, and floor machine.

So look something up your self there are two flavors of Trojan T-105 batteries. The standard T-105 is a hybrid made for golf carts. Then there is the T-105RE a true deep cycle battery made for renewable energy. Pleas look at the specs for the T-105 and T-105RE. Look at the weight of each. Both are in the exact same case and same AH rating. However the T-105RE has 5 more pounds of lead in it. The plates are fewer but much thicker and heavier. Now this is really going to piss you off. Now look a the cycle life vs DOD graph of the T-105RE. It is really going to irritate you.

20% DOD = 4000 cycle the deign of any solar system daily usage.
50% DOD = 1700 cycles the point you do not want to ever go below even AGM
80% DOD = 1000 cycles, just as good or better than any AGM you can find, and a lot less expensive for comparable quality and capacity.

I will grant you AGM has applications. Some of those are:

• Extremely cold environments.
• Unusual Installation Orientation like on its side.
• In very tight air spaces where there is no ventilation.
• Charge/Discharge currents in excess of C/8. A good example would be Seattle WS where winter Insolation is 1 hour and charge rates approach a 1C.

In those applications you can then justify the extra expense and shorter battery life. Your notion of it takes less solar panel panel to charge a AGM is correct, about 10 to 15%. But flawed economic logic. This is due to the expense of AGM batteries. An AGM watt hour cost are roughly twice that of FLA batteries. In any Solar off-grid application the minimum battery autonomy is 5 days, or a 20% daily DOD. The added cost of using AGM makes the total equipment installation cost much higher initially, and then compounded with more frequent replacement cost. The extra panel wattage cost are more than offset by the lower FLA battery cost.

[solarside]

firstly thanks for the answers..! exactly ..that was my question.. the lifetime...

Glad I could help you and it sounds like this battery is practical for you in many ways. I like practical solutions to problems and being reasonable about facts and figures as they apply to certain situations.

However, you still need to contact them and find out what they say about the cycle figures before buying one.

Sunking:

> That does not make it right for solar.

"The higher charge efficiency of AGMs allows you to recharge with less energy" << -- sounds pretty good to me!

> AGM is twice the cost of FLA and last half as long. Proven fact.

I agree on the cost point but not in this case, if the price is what night_angel said it is, it's more like walmart pricing for a very high quality battery. "half as long" I don't agree for the reasons I stated before, it's all relative to the way it's manufactured.

> It clearly states for Float Service

Nowhere in the PDF file does it say that. You don't think a UPS battery will ever get cycled? What?

It clearly states "superior cyclic capability" and "high cycle capability" in the PDF

> And yes more lead means means it last longer for a given capacity.

If it was more lead SURFACE AREA maybe, but to compare this battery to another it would need to be about the same physical size so surface area would be about the same for the plates no matter how thick they were.

Some lead loss is expected, maybe that is what you are thinking but a good AGM with specs at 12+ years would have enough designed in to achieve it's proper lifetime even with loss.

> Cycle to 50% DOD AGM = 1000 at best, FLA = 3200 cycles. Not even close.

It's not clear from that table and you are twisting the numbers to make your point.

If you look at the Trojan (2xT105) I can say the exact opposite at FLA 500 cycles.

Cycle to 50% DOD AGM = 1000 at best, FLA = 500 cycles. "Not even close."

But the AGM can go 80% DoD, take that into account and things are even better.

I like that battery and it looks like a good choice for night_angel or other solar system people to use if the price is correct.

Mod note - You were warned - enough blather

[night_angel]

firstly thanks for the answers..! exactly ..that was my question.. the lifetime...


Way this question? I'm from south america, Paraguay, here are not many options of battery... and very few for solar systems like FLA...

at the moment I have 2 batteries, which are from Brazilian, the only ones i found

Freedom DF 3000 12v Bateries,
185 Ah em 100h a 25ºC @ 10,5V (1,75V/elemento)
170Ah em 20h a 25ºC @ 10,5V (1,75V/elemento)
156Ah em 10h a 25ºC @ 10,5V (1,75V/elemento)

510mm x 213mm x 230mm (46kg)

img_grande1063.jpg

and the prices are very high, like 300us 1 Freedom DF 3000..., some Optima d31m, cost here 380uss...,the optima , that was the battery, of the beginning I wanted to buy..I have seen many users use that optima..

so.. and the others are used for cell towers, and , I get them new for that price, from some person ... here locally...

and as the price seems decent, is is hard to find ...and +5 few years of lifetime, I think I'm more than happy with it..

I know that is not ideal Suking, but here in the 3rd world .. sometimes things are hard ... I can not import everything from USA, the cost are very high, and to have an idea .. build a solar system here .. Is get 3 times more expensive that in USA..

[Sunking]

"Here's one for solar and wind for the OP's original question "The higher charge efficiency of AGMs allows you to recharge with less energy: Flooded cells convert 15-20% of the electrical energy into heat instead of potential power. Gel-cells lose 10-16% but AGMs as little as 4%. The higher charge efficiency of AGMs can contribute to significant savings when it comes to the use of expensive renewable energy sources (wind generators, solar panels, etc.) as your charging system can be 15% smaller (or just charge faster)."

That does not make it right for solar. AGM is twice the cost of FLA and last half as long. Proven fact.

If you had taken the time to read the documents you would see it is not mad for cycling. It clearly states for Float Service, and the only application for float Charging is UPS systems as they do not have 3 or 4 stage charging of Bulk, Absorb, Float, and EQ.

And yes more lead means means it last longer for a given capacity.

Look at your own link it clearly tells you FLA last longer than AGM. It is the table at the bottom of the page. See it?

Cycle to 50% DOD AGM = 1000 at best, FLA = 3200 cycles. Not even close.

[solarside]

You might want to do a little research. AGM do not last as long as a good quailty deep cyle flooded lead acid battery. FLA Deep Cycle have considerable more lead in them for a given capacity.

"offers a relatively long service life, even when deep-cycled"

"The leading advantages are a charge that is up to five times faster than the flooded version, and the ability to deep cycle. AGM offers a depth-of-discharge of 80 percent; the flooded, on the other hand, is specified at 50 percent DoD to attain the same cycle life."

"Better cycle life than with flooded systems"

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm

"You might want to do a little research." - Like AGM cycling ?

A "good quality" normal deep cycle battery costs twice as much as this one, if the price he stated is correct. Unless you are saying a walmart deep cycle is good quality.

There's a whole list of why AGMs are much better than normal lead acid at this site in case the OP is still interested in this conversation at all at this point

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/

Here's one for solar and wind for the OP's original question "The higher charge efficiency of AGMs allows you to recharge with less energy: Flooded cells convert 15-20% of the electrical energy into heat instead of potential power. Gel-cells lose 10-16% but AGMs as little as 4%. The higher charge efficiency of AGMs can contribute to significant savings when it comes to the use of expensive renewable energy sources (wind generators, solar panels, etc.) as your charging system can be 15% smaller (or just charge faster)."

I agree that a heavier battery must have more lead but that doesn't necessarily make it last longer. If you sulfate it, it's only a coating isn't it? Doesn't matter how thick the lead is. If it's constructed badly, has contaminated lead or contaminated acid, same thing. It's surface area that matters mostly (to a point).

So it depends on why it has a shorter life. These batteries look to be very good quality and I don't think they are making it up when they say 12+ year lifespan.

If they are saying it's a 12+ year battery and cycles well, I like it for the price he said with all the other advantages of AGM. I would still say contact the company and check how well it cycles AS I RECOMMENDED TO THE OP to do his own research.

I think the OP made a good find, if he contacts that company I would like to hear what they said.

You guys welcome new people in such a nice way and make it so inviting here for other technical people to spend their valuable time posting and contributing to the forum, thanks!

[Sunking]

Because it's AGM you just increased the lifetime over a normal lead acid, and you can put them inside because they are sealed so in the winter they would stay warm and work better.

You might want to do a little research. AGM do not last as long as a good quailty deep cyle flooded lead acid battery. FLA Deep Cycle have considerable more lead in them for a given capacity.