Yet another problem some people face is this:
1. They install a small grid-tie system, with the intent to expand it.
2. Then when the time to expand comes along, their original installer has either raised their rates astronomically trying to stay in business or has gone out of business.
Quite often, when this happens no other local solar installer or even general electrician will touch the system since they had no part in the original installation and do not want to be on the hook for anything the first installer may have done wrong. That seems unfair to the homeowner, but it makes good business sense to the new company.
Since grid-tie cannot be entirely DIY (engineering and trade sign-offs are required), this leaves the homeowner up the creek with a small system or else having to start over from scratch.
How many watts in solar panels do I need for my grid tie system
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The problem I am having with this thread is that there is a lot of misinformation and down right incorrect information being distributed. see my comments below.
Mod note - Removed comments - if you care to try again best stay away from the same thing you are accusing Sunking of - statements without obvious basisLast edited by russ; 07-17-2012, 04:08 PM.Leave a comment:
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I really am glad I found this site. I have a lot to think about. Thank you for being patient with me.Leave a comment:
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Well first I must say sorry again, should have slept on that one. I guess my question should have been Why not start out small. I saw you said something about problems with upgrading size later, but there are problems with everything...they just need to be addressed and resolved.
For grid tied system you are going to have to go through the whole permitting and inspection process which is expensive. In addition using contract labor is going to be very high on small scale jobs upgrading, and inflation will cause it to go even higher.
Lastly and this is a big one. All those rebates and incentives to force your neighbors to pay for your system is a one time deal. Next time all the expense is on you. So instead of your neighbor being extorted to pay for up to 75% of your system, you get to pay up to 400% more for the addition.
Probable because you have no idea of how money works either for you or against you. Invest that same amount of money, not only will it pay for your electric bill with interest, it will also compound and grow. So in 10 years it paid for all the electricity you used and grew into real cash you can use to retire on and go on a permanent vacation. If it takes 10 to 20 years to break even, you have 0% ROI and nothing to cash out.Leave a comment:
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Well first I must say sorry again, should have slept on that one. I guess my question should have been Why not start out small. I saw you said something about problems with upgrading size later, but there are problems with everything...they just need to be addressed and resolved.
As I see it if you start with a small grid tied system that doesn't make all the electricity you need but just cuts down on what you must buy from the poco, thats a good thing. Why do you guys always suggest the largest system possible, demanding that it meets your entire power need. If you dont make excess, who cares what the power co. pays.
And I dont get the payback time. Even if it takes 10 years, so what. If you stayed on the grid, the Power Co. isn't going to start paying you in 10 years.lolLeave a comment:
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As has just been stated - if grid power is available grid tie is the only way. If it costs to much to connect (power line extension etc) as in Mike's case then a battery system might be of use.
Even grid tie only makes sense if very generous incentives and feed in tariff are available. Without big time financial assistance solar PV is not ready for prime time.
For off grid systems people have to change their life style big time - do away with many luxuries and wasteful items - most (99%?) are not interested.
Start small? Expanding systems is generally not practical as components need to be sized to fit in with other equipment.
Residential wind? Far worse - commercial wind is useful in a few places but residential is generally a waste of money.
There are a million scamsters out there trying to make a case for their junk - difficult for people to avoid them.
As Sunking said, we get people wanting to 'stick it to the utility' - a rather silly viewpoint - I guess their barber told them how they were getting screwed - if anyone figures it out for themselves it is easy to see that commercial power is a very big bargain today. Even where I am electricity is a little under 20 cents US per kWh while gas and diesel run about 10$ US per gallon.
Small is great as a learning experiment and DIY the same. For real power larger and commercial grid tie is the only practical solution.Leave a comment:
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The other scenario is Grid Tied which can be of benefit to the homeowner, but there are a lot of factors that go into the decision, and most of it depends on your location. Where i live in TX electric power is dirt cheap @ about 9-cents per Kwh down from 13-cents a few years ago and will continue to go down. TX does not have Net Metering Laws except for the Austin area. Since TX has no Net Metering Laws utilities are not even required to connect you with a solar system, and will only pay Wholesale prices. Couple all that along with no state incentives and it would be decades before you just break even with 0% ROI.
Where I live I pay 9-cents I can Grid Tied. For that privilege TXU will come out and install the dual meters for the system, raise my rate to 15-cents per Kwh, and pay me 7-cents for the excess I generate and give to them to sale to my neighbor for 9-cents. So for me my electric bill would go down about 20% (from $100/month to $75 to $80/month), and I would be out $30K in cash. Not going to happen. Oh, and if I want to stick it too the MAN and go off-grid battery I am looking at a cost of right around $100,000 initial investment, with $40,000 of that in batteries that need replaced in about every 5 years. No Thank You, I prefer to just keep paying the Mean Ole Greedy POCO $6000 every 5 years, and invest the rest so I can retire comfortably.
As for Austin TX that does have Net Metering and Local incentives. To get that those folks pay 50% more for electricity than the rest of TX does. Who does that hurt in Austin? Everyone living there especially the poor and Blue Collar workers who cannot afford to take advantage of the free money they are paying. Are you a biz looking to relocate in TX. Scratch Austin off your list, because energy and taxes are too high there. Your money is welcome in Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, and San Antonio, but not in Austin.
So if someone wants to go Grid Tied or Off-Grid, once they know the facts and still want to proceed, I will help them.Leave a comment:
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Sadly (or it's good) Texas has cheap electric rates. That means solar will have a long break-even period. Some areas in Texas do not even allow selling back power.Leave a comment:
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Please don't get mad.
Actually, it would come out a lot worse than the same amount of panels in a grid-tie application since you would have the extra cost of the batteries, which would not last forever either. You will end up paying at least 5 times as much for the solar electricity for your trailer as you would to leave the same appliances on the grid.
I believe there is always a way you just need to find it.
Is it that you guys are just sick of explainig that there is more involved in getting started than most people think?Leave a comment:
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Axel, don't give up yet. I live in central Texas as well (round rock). Depending on who your electrical provider is there are some really nice rebates available to help you get solar installed, as well as the tax credits. I just finished my install of a 10kW system on my roof. Total cost was 37 and some change. By the time I got all the rebates the cost to me was about 13k and I will get 4k and some change tax CREDIT on my returns next year. Bringing my total cost to about 8k. Let me know if you want more specifics and I will give them to you.
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Actually, it would come out a lot worse than the same amount of panels in a grid-tie application since you would have the extra cost of the batteries, which would not last forever either. You will end up paying at least 5 times as much for the solar electricity for your trailer as you would to leave the same appliances on the grid.
I better go back and do some more reading in my solar power books.
I think I will end this string and make a post in the General section with my thoughts about the use of solar energy.
Thanks
AzelLeave a comment:
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Actually, it would come out a lot worse than the same amount of panels in a grid-tie application since you would have the extra cost of the batteries, which would not last forever either. You will end up paying at least 5 times as much for the solar electricity for your trailer as you would to leave the same appliances on the grid.Leave a comment:
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I want to thank you both for the links.
It looks like I would need to install 5000 watts in solar panels to cut my monthly electric bill in half. That is a lot more than I had planned on.
I may go to my Plan B. I had thought about installing electrical conduit in my trailer and making a second power circuit that is solar/battery only. I would plug in small wattage draw appliances like refrigerator, lights, computers, but not big wattage drawers like air conditioners, electric heaters. I would leave heavy watt drawing appliances on gird circuit and run the small watt drawing appliances on solar circuit. In a house this would probably not be practical, but in a trailer, it would not be much trouble to install conduit externally where wall and ceiling meet the full length of the trailer with conduit branch downs to appliances. This would include:
Lights
fans
conputers
microwave
refrigerator
I don't suppose this would help lower the monthly electric bill to half as I had planned, but it would help. My air conditioner (in summer) and electric heater (in winter) are the appliances that really draw the watt hours.Leave a comment:
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Another online calculator with a few more buttons comes from Sharp http://sharpusa.cleanpowerestimator.com/sharpusa.htmLeave a comment:
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Go to PV watts (link on home page)
Plug in your zip code, tilt of roof and azimuth of array and play around with array size to come up with a system size that would work for you.
In most cases the PVwatts will come up with a larger array than actually needed as the derate factors are fairly high but we can go into that once some system parameters and equipment is chosen.Leave a comment:
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