How does one PROPERLY go about designing a 100% Solar System?

[russ]

One of my favorites until my son drove it without oil was a 1995 Geo Metro sedan with 5 speed manual and a three cylinder 1.0 liter engine. He spun two of the crankshaft bearings and I still managed to drive it another 5000+ miles as a commute car until I found somebody with the same car with a good engine but a totalled body and sold him my car.
A nominal Chevy made by Suzuki at a factory in Canada.
It got close to 40 MPG.

The Micra averages just above 43 mpg.

[inetdog]

The last car I bought was a Nissan Micra - small car and petrol engine. I preferred a diesel but the premium they charge for the common rail diesels is too much.

One of my favorites until my son drove it without oil was a 1995 Geo Metro sedan with 5 speed manual and a three cylinder 1.0 liter engine. He spun two of the crankshaft bearings and I still managed to drive it another 5000+ miles as a commute car until I found somebody with the same car with a good engine but a totalled body and sold him my car.
A nominal Chevy made by Suzuki at a factory in Canada.
It got close to 40 MPG.

[russ]

True. The option of using the EREV or Hybrid as a power source only makes sense if you would have the EV anyway!

The last car I bought was a Nissan Micra - small car and petrol engine. I preferred a diesel but the premium they charge for the common rail diesels is too much.

[inetdog]

With an EV you end up paying a premium at present - opportunity charge by the mfg?

You end up prepaying years of gas cost when buying an EV.

A cheap generator set can be quiet and the difference in efficiency won't be noticeable for the time period operated.

True. The option of using the EREV or Hybrid as a power source only makes sense if you would have the EV anyway!

[russ]

With an EV you end up paying a premium at present - opportunity charge by the mfg?

You end up prepaying years of gas cost when buying an EV.

A cheap generator set can be quiet and the difference in efficiency won't be noticeable for the time period operated.

[inetdog]

The Volt will burn less gasoline than a home generator delivering the same power due to the larger, lightly used genset.

Actually another big factor is the controls, electronic and otherwise, in an extended range EV which allow the engine to be run at its most efficient settings, including shutting the engine down and starting it up again as needed even though the load on the batteries is continuous.
An inverter type generator does a better job of running the engine efficiently than a conventional generator which has to maintain a constant engine speed to keep the AC frequency correct. But even an inverter generator cannot continue to supply a load while the engine is off.
In the simplest case, I have run a 12 volt inverter off the 12 volt auxiliary battery of a Prius and the engine just cycles as needed to keep up the 12 volts when the traction battery gets too low.

[bonaire]

Agreed that a generator makes for a great Portable & emergent uses system - especially for topping off batteries & High Amp appliances.

Cool stuff, but using a $14K+ Car & Li-Ion battery as a battery bank?!? Sounds like asking for an expensive problem - ones on lease actually track usage patterns.

Car with battery bank is for daily commuting and the very rare off chance of a storm outage, you can use the gender plus battery as a power source. Look for work class trucks to offer this kind of thing standard from companies like Via Motors and others. In ten years, this will be more commonplace. People are not buying EREV cars for standby, but are using them in some instances for the availability of power just as a typical car has a 12v battery that could be similarly used. The volt will burn less gasoline than a home generator delivering the same power due to the larger, lightly used genset. Just like a home battery set can be used and recharged by a cycled generator.

If you want to follow a long thread on the subject,

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?8835-Volt-as-Emergency-Power-Generator

[russ]

The hydrogen generators are neat! Residential units are bombs for the most part.

If you haven't worked in a hazardous gas culture (gas handling/reforming plant) it is doubtful one would understand how to go about it.

The DIY H2 generator sites are full of hot air more than hydrogen.

[Naptown]

Greatly appreciate the suggestions from everyone here!

Did you leave the generator on all day? Or do you have the auto-starting Genset Controller (The Xantrex XW series you suggested, sounds like it automatically turns the generator on/Off when Batts hit a Default or Factory Genset thresholds or user programmed limits). Didn't realize I could get a 3rd party to turn on/off generators - guessing the Generator would either need a battery start and an add to trigger the for the ignition task. I'll have to double check the manual online before ordering.

Where I live there are too many trees that cannot by law be cut or trimmed so no solar for Naptown. (kind of an oxymoron considering I am a pro in the field)
Anyway Generally I run the Generator for a few hours in the AM and a few hours in the evening to watch TV and cool down one room in the summer if it is hot. This keeps the fridge cold, freezer frozen and provides a bit of entertainment and a reasonable place to sleep in the heat. Cooking is done with Propane along with Hot water. Well requires the generator to run. Heating is propane so that runs as well off the generator but most outages occur in the summer fall hurricane season.

[KenTechno]

Cool stuff!

You can use a battery plus generator together without solar. It can cycle the generator on and off and you are not burning gas the whole time. Some Chevy volt owners do this with their car during an outage and can run a 1000 to 1200 watt inverter off the car using occasional runs of the gas engine. It puts stress on the AGM battery but the primary battery of 16kWH is fine when used that way. Down the road, EVs will be see for outages in this way. The technique is called v2h. Vehicle to home. V2h would not use the 12V battery but use the high voltage battery directly. Some activity with that now in Japan.

Agreed that a generator makes for a great Portable & emergent uses system - especially for topping off batteries & High Amp appliances.

Cool stuff, but using a $14K+ Car & Li-Ion battery as a battery bank?!? Sounds like asking for an expensive problem - ones on lease actually track usage patterns.

[KenTechno]

Aew we referring to the same Product?

Stay far away from H2 systems/ Nothing energy or earth friendly about them. If you think battery power is expensive and inefficient with 50% best case. H2 is down less than 5%. Horrible waste of resources.

I was thinking either waste H2 Gas collection or via electrolytic conversion. Hydride tank storage, and using a $25 conversion of a rebuilt 5 HP Gas Low compression engine ($250). $250 Hydride tank The value is in reducing battery Bank storage and managing evening Wind turbine output, instead of load dumping, right after the Solar cells charge the batts. Total cost plus time input of $550 - H2 gas production would be negligible. Looks like I can run either Gas or H2 into the engine, but through a different manifold and electronic timing shift.

Also, listing of few dozen H2 Auto/bus fill-Stations coming on line-Mostly private, for city bus lines & Car companies. Bulk are in California at present time.

http://www.fuelcells.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/h2fuelingstations-US.pdf

[bonaire]

You can use a battery plus generator together without solar. It can cycle the generator on and off and you are not burning gas the whole time. Some Chevy volt owners do this with their car during an outage and can run a 1000 to 1200 watt inverter off the car using occasional runs of the gas engine. It puts stress on the AGM battery but the primary battery of 16kWH is fine when used that way. Down the road, EVs will be see for outages in this way. The technique is called v2h. Vehicle to home. V2h would not use the 12V battery but use the high voltage battery directly. Some activity with that now in Japan.

[KenTechno]

Great Generator as 1st or 2nd string back-up!

I own a portable generator that gets used for events like this. I have never had a problem with fuel. The reason is I don't wait till after the storm to try to get it. I use about 3 gallons of gas a day in my 5000W unit. I also have 6- 5 gallon gas cans that get filled just before the storm hits. For the most part these storms are predicted so there is time before the storm hits to prepare. Waiting till after is a recipe to be in the dark. The only time I had trouble was during the Derecho of a few years ago as this was not predicted. Cost me a grand total of $700.

Greatly appreciate the suggestions from everyone here!

Did you leave the generator on all day? Or do you have the auto-starting Genset Controller (The Xantrex XW series you suggested, sounds like it automatically turns the generator on/Off when Batts hit a Default or Factory Genset thresholds or user programmed limits). Didn't realize I could get a 3rd party to turn on/off generators - guessing the Generator would either need a battery start and an add to trigger the for the ignition task. I'll have to double check the manual online before ordering.

[KenTechno]

Almost forgot about tha Beer!

In the case of an Ice storm or hurricane, that shreds the electrical distribution system, you must consider what would happen to a $20,000 rooftop of glass solar panels. If you have a garden shed you can store a 3-5Kw generator, and fuel for a week, you are way ahead of the $20k of PV expense. In the case of an ice storm, you will not have sun, and the PV system is dead. If the weather and grid conditions are bad, longer then you have fuel for, the generator is dead! So, what to do?

I say a small 1-2KW inverter generator that will run your fridge and a fan, for 6 hours a day, a single, cheap 12V marine battery, a 120VAC battery charger, and a string of 12V led lights. If you want, add a 200w PV panel & charge controller. You can keep your beer cold, and have lights on all night to annoy the neighbors ! Or you can go all elaborate and spend $25K in gear, and use it twice in your lifetime.

Just bringing up alternatives to consider.

Thanks Mike for the reminder - gotta have some good cold beer while flashing megawatts of LED lights! I think the Xantrex suggested earlier by Naptown, has a nice auto Genset feature communicating with the programmable Charge controller, so I wouldn't even have to bother turning the fuel generators on/off, thereby conserving fuel/preventing overcharge. I'll check, but I think the newer panels can survive 5200Pa of impact - otherwise I'll have to build them a storm shelter too

The 3kW of Panels (I have an Insolation of about 3 hrs) would run $4-5K - I would think except for golf ball sized hail, a near/direct Lightening strike, or large object striking the roof, the mounting brackets and most of the wiring would be intact. Good warning for those in tornado alley...Fortunately, I don't live in a tornado/twister zone, although they do pass through every 10-years of so. Roof panels would be 20 feet high.

[KenTechno]

Is this a reaction to the recent Sandy storm?

Consider a good natural gas or propane generator.

Hi Bonaire! Thanks for the suggestions. Been through a number of power outages, every time, saying this too shall pass.... Sandy was the 3rd "100 year" storm in a decade here with multiple day power loss, so more of a final wake-up call to bite the bullet and have a nearly automated system in place. My thinking is if critical items are on and being used daily - less to worry about when the warnings come though. Either I could wonder if I have enough fuel, batteries and electricity and will the generator start to make it past the next storm or bite the bullet and put a comfortable plan in place to get past a potential crisis. If I'm already functional off-grid, losing Grid power becomes a minor inconvenience, rather than planning how to keep a refrigerator full of food cold, stay warm, clean, and fed - so 2.5kWh/Day for me makes the difference between being uncomfortable vs. dealing with mass media panic.

Anything beyond the 2.5kWh/day is just another level of safety margin, redundancy, and minimizing the effects of a power outage. So 5xDays of Battery power (presumes no sun/snow blockout for 5 days-highly unlikely) would need 12.5kWh of stored energy (at 50% DOD, that is 2000Ahr of Battery Storage). My thinking now, is if I integrate wind/H2/Propane generator(s) - worst case scenario, I can probably cut down that number to 1000-800 AHr and still have a 40-50% DOD buffer, thereby keeping the batteries alive for at least a 1000 cycles). As I understand the Peukert curve, planning for 10-20% DOD daily use ensures even higher cycling times upto 2000+/maybe giving 5-10 years service life - I'm still going to work on the assumption that my first set of batts will die off prematurely, just in case. I think this happens because of both learning curve for maintenance and a lack of battery conditioning with placed in-service. I'll only know for sure with experience this year though.

Stay warm!
- Ken