Solar shopper - Newb in San Clemente CA 92673

[soukbomb]

I am not using their service, was just using it as a base of comparison. I've only seen pricing on very few deals on these boards that were better than $3.45 a watt,
so it is pretty good IMO and the IRR is north of 20% so if that is the best I can get when I finish shopping, I'd take a deal at those economics.
Glad you beat it with your installer and I am about ready to start consulting with installers and your guy on my list. Your other points are well taken.
Thanks !

Chuck,
Can you share the pricing and vendors you have offline? I am new and can't PM yet, but I noticed you requested from subdriver a while back. I figured you had a few more?
Thanks
Jason

[J.P.M.]

Yes, these are good points. If there aren't advantages, why choose them? The business relationship between a broker and an installer could provide more incentive for an installer to perform at a higher level, since the promise of future business is more tangible with a broker than it is for an average homeowner who may or may not become a source of referrals. However, this is just speculation, and without knowing more about the company found by the OP, I don't intend to project any advantages (or disadvantages) onto them. The OP has indicated that the shopping process is still ongoing, and that this is just a basis for comparison. Hopefully whoever he selects will provide a high quality, hassle free installation at a good price, regardless of the business model used by the vendor.

I'm not really advocating installer selection with *no* regard to system support over time, I'm just suggesting that weighing that support more heavily than other factors is hard for me to justify, considering that the odds of any business surviving more than 10 years is a crapshoot, no matter what kind of history they've established. Most 3rd party vendors have some provision for long term support... sometimes through the same installer who puts the system up, sometimes through other business partners. For me, it was more important to make sure everything was done as well as possible at the time of the installation, and that the equipment manufacturer's warranties are intact. If something breaks and the vendor is still around to fix it later, great, but the promise of that service rates only slightly higher than the value of those warranties to me, neither of which moves the needle all that much.

I wonder how many of those service calls are real problems, and how many are just an installer placating an ignorant customer who doesn't understand how the system is supposed to work? I would guess that communication problems are probably higher on the list of things actually needing service than any of the PV functionality, but don't have any data to back up that hypothesis, either.

On your last point about babysitting, IMO, that's probably a good part of it, but there are a few actual situations. Snooping around and asking what happened when I see a service truck, I find most of the time owners were clueless about what they bought/leased/PPA'd. Example: one owner turned the inverter off each night, forget to turn it on the next day and figured the thing died. Honest.

In general, and keeping in mind I'm not aware of all issues in the HOA, other issues seem to be in the monitoring or wiring and is usually resolved early on and quickly. To my knowledge, at this time no panels have ben replaced in the HOA for failure or other reasons.

[sensij]

All agreed. But for the same price or less with potentially fewer hassles, where's the advantages ?

I agree that in a perfect world with no probability of problems I don't want to see the vendor again, but that doesn't seem like a good reason to, in effect, burn your bridges behind you and not be able to easily contact the installer if/when/as necessary.

I see service calls in my HOA on a regular, but infrequent basis from most solar vendors, mostly the good ones more than Larry with a ladder. I'd interpret that to mean even the good guys have screw-ups, but Larry is off doing sub work somewhere.

Yes, these are good points. If there aren't advantages, why choose them? The business relationship between a broker and an installer could provide more incentive for an installer to perform at a higher level, since the promise of future business is more tangible with a broker than it is for an average homeowner who may or may not become a source of referrals. However, this is just speculation, and without knowing more about the company found by the OP, I don't intend to project any advantages (or disadvantages) onto them. The OP has indicated that the shopping process is still ongoing, and that this is just a basis for comparison. Hopefully whoever he selects will provide a high quality, hassle free installation at a good price, regardless of the business model used by the vendor.

I'm not really advocating installer selection with *no* regard to system support over time, I'm just suggesting that weighing that support more heavily than other factors is hard for me to justify, considering that the odds of any business surviving more than 10 years are a crapshoot, no matter what kind of history they've established. Most 3rd party vendors have some provision for long term support... sometimes through the same installer who puts the system up, sometimes through other business partners. For me, it was more important to make sure everything was done as well as possible at the time of the installation, and that the equipment manufacturer's warranties are intact. If something breaks and the vendor is still around to fix it later, great, but the promise of that service rates only slightly higher than the value of those warranties to me, neither of which moves the needle all that much.

I wonder how many of those service calls are real problems, and how many are just an installer placating an ignorant customer who doesn't understand how the system is supposed to work? I would guess that communication problems are probably higher on the list of things actually needing service than any of the PV functionality, but don't have any data to back up that hypothesis, either.

[J.P.M.]

Maybe those things are common problems with your installer, so he gets to be buddies with all his customers. Most people are looking for an installer who gets the job done right the first time, and is never seen again.

The bias here against third party installers is a bit over the top. Done correctly, the installation (and installation experience) can be just as good or better than it is with the more traditional contractor. I've seen some ridiculous "designs" recommended by electrical guys who just don't understand solar, but this seems to be an industry where competence is much less important than marketing ability.

OP hasn't provided enough information to say whether the company he found is good or bad. ... the content of the contract and due diligence are necessary no matter who is hired. The desire to jump down his throat with doom and gloom at this point seems odd.

All agreed. But for the same price or less with potentially fewer hassles, where's the advantages ?

I agree that in a perfect world with no probability of problems I don't want to see the vendor again, but that doesn't seem like a good reason to, in effect, burn your bridges behind you and not be able to easily contact the installer if/when/as necessary.

I see service calls in my HOA on a regular, but infrequent basis from most solar vendors, mostly the good ones more than Larry with a ladder. I'd interpret that to mean even the good guys have screw-ups, but Larry is off doing sub work somewhere.

[sensij]

Oh... I dont know....

Leaks, sparks, loose panels, smoke.

Maybe those things are common problems with your installer, so he gets to be buddies with all his customers. Most people are looking for an installer who gets the job done right the first time, and is never seen again.

The bias here against third party installers is a bit over the top. Done correctly, the installation (and installation experience) can be just as good or better than it is with the more traditional contractor. I've seen some ridiculous "designs" recommended by electrical guys who just don't understand solar, but this seems to be an industry where competence is much less important than marketing ability.

OP hasn't provided enough information to say whether the company he found is good or bad. ... the content of the contract and due diligence are necessary no matter who is hired. The desire to jump down his throat with doom and gloom at this point seems odd.

[Alisobob]

For $3.69/Watt you can get it all. Why go through the extra work and extra potential for problems ?

Yup......

[Alisobob]

Why would anyone ever want to see their installer again?

Oh... I dont know....

Leaks, sparks, loose panels, smoke.

Using a 3rd party installer is just asking for trouble.

[Chuck92673]

I am not using their service, was just using it as a base of comparison. I've only seen pricing on very few deals on these boards that were better than $3.45 a watt,
so it is pretty good IMO and the IRR is north of 20% so if that is the best I can get when I finish shopping, I'd take a deal at those economics.
Glad you beat it with your installer and I am about ready to start consulting with installers and your guy on my list. Your other points are well taken.
Thanks !

[J.P.M.]

Why would anyone ever want to see their installer again? The price looks good... not setting records for the lowest price ever paid, but certainly in the range that I think would be reasonable to pay. There is a point at which hunting for the best deal costs more (in time and energy) than any $$ savings is worth.

I'd agree that the price, while not the lowest, could be worse. I would have some reservations about the acquisition method. Using established installers who do turnkey systems has some hardtop $$ quantify advantages. Call it a warm/fuzzy feel.

For $3.69/Watt, I can probably get a good job from an installer of my choice, which or one thing may well mean a vendor with a solid rep. and a history.

Maybe the OP's vendor is one such outfit. But I've got to think that there will be a lower probability of foulups and less finger pointing when the foulups do occur if the vendor handles all the details including material acquisition, permitting, construction, startup and inspection interface.

For $3.69/Watt you can get it all. Why go through the extra work and extra potential for problems ?

[sensij]

That sounds kinda' pricey, from a installer you'll never see again, and a website who may or may not be around when you need them.

Part of my requirement was to use a installer with several revenue streams other than solar... in case solar ( as a industry) goes belly up.

I also paid less, and had my roof under the panels repapered as part of the deal.

I think you're leaving too much on the plate, for what your getting.

Why would anyone ever want to see their installer again? The price looks good... not setting records for the lowest price ever paid, but certainly in the range that I think would be reasonable to pay. There is a point at which hunting for the best deal costs more (in time and energy) than any $$ savings is worth.

[Alisobob]

That sounds kinda' pricey, from a installer you'll never see again, and a website who may or may not be around when you need them.

Part of my requirement was to use a installer with several revenue streams other than solar... in case solar ( as a industry) goes belly up.

I also paid less, and had my roof under the panels repapered as part of the deal.

I think you're leaving too much on the plate, for what your getting.

[Chuck92673]

Kind of interesting - pricing info I was able to get

Got pricing for a complete system including installation from an unnamed website that sells retail systems and
has an option to connect you with an installer at a fixed price based on system size and roof type.

It's good to know this lines up so well with other recent SoCal projects mentioned here on these boards.
I am still going to engage with probably a handful of local supplier/installers and am planning to ask them for
separate materials, installation cost for a specific system similar to that below along with 200 amp panel cost and installation.

Of course will consider any relevant recommendations they have on hardware components or the installation itself.
s an aside, I am pretty happy that I figured out how the system would fit on the roof
to eliminate almost all shading issues.

Here is the quote I rec'd :
CanadianSolar 22 280 watt panels
Solar Edge 22 opt's; SE 6000

DC Watts 6,160
Hardware $11,200 $1.82
Install $8,000 $1.30
Total cost $19,200 $3.12
Tax $1,344 7%
Total w/tax $20,544 $3.34
Shipping $699
Total incl tax/ship $21,243 $3.45
200A Panel $1,500
Before tax credit $ $22,743 $3.69
Fed tax credit 70%
Net Cost $15,920 $2.58

Using a .7% system degradation and 3% inflation and the SDGE proposed new tiering, I get an IRR north of 20%,
but that doesn't include inverter replacement or any repairs outside of the warranty.

[logdin]

Well it was in the attic. Not between the walls. New ducting got us down to 12% volume loss. So in my case (and i would imagine others that have 30+ year old dwellings with ducting distributed from the attic), its worth checking. The crap that was taken out was plastic wrapped (we're talking garbage bag plastic) with 1/2" fiberglass insulation wrapped around very widely spaced wire. It was split in many places and could easily be seen with an infrared imaging system, then felt by hand. And yes, you are correct; volume of air being pushed, not heat/cooling. Less than half was making it to the registers. The other half was in the attic, so yes, I was heating and cooling the attic more than I was the living spaces of the house.

[J.P.M.]

While you're looking for leaks, don't forget to look at your duct work. A relatively inexpensive static pressure test might reveal some big leaks. After I had my PV system installed, I got an offer to do the duct testing. Turned out I was heating and cooling my attic. 56% loss. Thats big with AC. Ducting was 35 years old and had split in several areas.

Spent $1000 on reducting. Huge rewards. House now stays cold with AC only running a fraction of the time. I sized my PV system to run AC as often as needed with the leaks. Now, I could have gone 20% smaller. Guess I'll get an EV to use the excess generation.

Unless the ductwork runs outside of the conditioned space - say through an unheated/cooled attic, basement, crawlspace, and particularly through stud spaces, etc., - the actual heat gains/losses will be to the conditioned space. If any ducting is through unconditioned areas, and that ducting is serviced/checked/sealed, it may be safe to assume there is not much more than the usual loss. 35 yr. old ducting probably wasn't that tight to begin with. Leaks inside the conditioned space may mean the ducting system will not balance out temps as well through the dwelling with warm/cool spots perhaps being more noticeable, and the system will be slightly less efficient as a result of less conditioned air getting to where it was intended, but such losses as the 56% # probably relate to air vol. and not heat. Even well designed an sealed systems will probably lose 10-20% unless some real attention to detail is taken. I resealed an existing forced air system many years ago and try as I might, I'd guess, I couldn't get the air leakage below about 10%, from an est. 30% initial. I believe that was one of the first applications in the area I lived at the time of pressurizing an HVAC system and finding leaks with smoke.

Still, the point about attention to duct sealing and losses is a good one that I forgot to mention, particularly with older systems.

[logdin]

windows, doors, electrical receptacles, built in lamps, attic fans, attic doors, plumbing connections etc

While you're looking for leaks, don't forget to look at your duct work. A relatively inexpensive static pressure test might reveal some big leaks. After I had my PV system installed, I got an offer to do the duct testing. Turned out I was heating and cooling my attic. 56% loss. Thats big with AC. Ducting was 35 years old and had split in several areas.

Spent $1000 on reducting. Huge rewards. House now stays cold with AC only running a fraction of the time. I sized my PV system to run AC as often as needed with the leaks. Now, I could have gone 20% smaller. Guess I'll get an EV to use the excess generation.