lights all pulsing, and some LEDs buzzing?

[J.P.M.]

"Q: What do you call someone who likes to hang out with musicians?




A: A drummer. "

Highlight to see the answer.

That would then be someone with no musical talent who hangs out with musicians.

Onward.

[inetdog]

Understood. I bet we do have friends of friends. Long, boring story, I once was at a crossroads of changing careers to music. It never was much more than a hobby/interest - percussion, mostly drums - or to serious engineering....

"Q: What do you call someone who likes to hang out with musicians?




A: A drummer. "

Highlight to see the answer.

[SunEagle]

You pretty much got it. While a bad PF can add to a commercial or industrial electric bill (low PF penalties) it is pretty much ignored until their distribution transformers run out of space due to all of the losses. To improve the PF, capacitors were added. The problem with installing PF capacitors is that they increase the distortion of the 11th harmonic. That only added to the issue of the 5th and 7th which are usually generated by 3 phase electronic motor drives.

Harmonics caught a lot of people by surprise starting with IBM when they added all of those personal computers in one of their offices. Those computers increased the "triplian" harmonics (3rd, 9th, 15th) which also caused the neutral conductor to carrier 2 to 3 times the current is should have. There is a simple way to eliminate those harmonics.

IBM was lucky that they had a contractor working for them at the time who identified and resolved those harmonics.

[jflorey2]

You need to mitigate more then just the PF. For that matter back in the day before I really understood about THD I use to design and help install PF correcting capacitor systems. What I did not know at the time was that if you don't take the harmonics into consideration just adding capacitors without filters can cause a worse problem for the power distribution system including hurting the PF.

Absolutely. When I think of bad power factor I think of two big issues:
1) Reactive power, caused by big inductors (motors mostly) shifting the impedance of the load from resistive to reactive
2) Peak rectification, caused by cheap switching supplies with big rectifiers + filter caps on their front end. (Often called harmonic distortion due to the very non-sine-wave characteristic of the current draw due to peak rectification.)

1) got all the attention for a long time because pumps, fans and industrial motors were one of the biggest consumers of power on the grid. Then computers and solid state electronics came along, and suddenly everyone was peak-rectifying - first with massive transformers and bridge rectifiers (which had their own problems) and then eventually with AC input rectification and switchmode supplies. It caught a lot of people by surprise; not only did it cause problems with grid transformers, it even affected distribution wiring. Suddenly the return on a three-phase system wasn't just a "just in case of imbalance" conductor; it started carrying serious current. Indeed, with peak rectification, you could even get cases where the neutral carried more current than any of the three phases, which was very non-inutitive for people used to dealing with the traditional problems of bad power factor.

The advent of power factor requirements for larger power supplies has, fortunately, started to ameliorate the problem.

[bcroe]

My job is to get engineers to understand the pitfalls of high THD when they design their distribution systems. Depending on where the
harmonic generating loads exist, a harmonic filter or transformer should be used.

While aware of the PF problem, I know very little about fixing it. I suppose those are gigantic 180 HZ notch filters? Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

Amen there. I've seen an awful lot of problems caused by cheap PWM supplies putting large nonlinear loads on power distribution systems, especially on three phase power. Fortunately, modern power-factor requirements for medium to large switchmode supplies are starting to ameliorate that problem.

You need to mitigate more then just the PF. For that matter back in the day before I really understood about THD I use to design and help install PF correcting capacitor systems. What I did not know at the time was that if you don't take the harmonics into consideration just adding capacitors without filters can cause a worse problem for the power distribution system including hurting the PF.

My job is to get engineers to understand the pitfalls of high THD when they design their distribution systems. Depending on where the harmonic generating loads exist, a harmonic filter or transformer should be used. Based on what my company has done for some pretty big Casino companies they all now install filters on the distribution panel that feeds their slot machines. Those puppies are really affected by harmonics.

[jflorey2]

A topic that some people know about but do not have a clue how to fix concerns Harmonic Distortion generated by PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) power supplies.

In my job I continue to try to teach engineers about this issue (since it is not taught in college) and help them better design the power distribution systems on their projects. I would rather see the harmonics mitigated at the start then to have someone come to us and ask for help to solve a problem similar or worse then what the OP has stated.

The THDi (total harmonic distortion of current) is a killer and will shorten the life of a lot of loads including motors, lights, UPS systems and a lot of other sensitive electronic equipment. It also creates issues with the voltage that has an impact of increased costs due to "penalty losses" caused by high neutral currents, load imbalance as well as distortion on long cable runs.

Amen there. I've seen an awful lot of problems caused by cheap PWM supplies putting large nonlinear loads on power distribution systems, especially on three phase power. Fortunately, modern power-factor requirements for medium to large switchmode supplies are starting to ameliorate that problem.

[SunEagle]

A topic that some people know about but do not have a clue how to fix concerns Harmonic Distortion generated by PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) power supplies.

In my job I continue to try to teach engineers about this issue (since it is not taught in college) and help them better design the power distribution systems on their projects. I would rather see the harmonics mitigated at the start then to have someone come to us and ask for help to solve a problem similar or worse then what the OP has stated.

The THDi (total harmonic distortion of current) is a killer and will shorten the life of a lot of loads including motors, lights, UPS systems and a lot of other sensitive electronic equipment. It also creates issues with the voltage that has an impact of increased costs due to "penalty losses" caused by high neutral currents, load imbalance as well as distortion on long cable runs.

[PNjunction]

Here''s an article about generators and load issues caused by non-linear lighting:

http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html

They go into quite a bit of detail of what happens and why

Mike - That is an AWESOME article! Holy cow. Deserves a classroom type study for sure. Although I'm not trying to bench-race the specs, I do wonder if the measured traces were from lights that were allowed to settle, or were they measured right at power up. I know my AC led's take about 5 minutes to settle down in current, despite the "instant on" capability. There is a little bit of surge from each light one has to take into account for a few minutes and wonder if the measured specs would be a bit different - although I'm not trying to question the author's measurements - just something I wonder.

One thing I've learned right off the bat is to NOT run flourescents or CFL's - especially if you put all your eggs (lighting along with other gear) into one inverter, be it MSW or PSW. Personally, even if running PSW inverters, I wouldn't just use one, but separate my lighting from my other sensitive gear by having more than one inverter circuit.

On a smaller scale than studio lighting, I am running AC driven led's, which have a typical power-factor of 0.9. (zero point nine). Unlike those from just a few years ago, it seems the PF has gotten better, and do not present a problem for my MSW inverters. (lighting is the *only* thing I run on msw's) - the psw's are used for more sensitive stuff, so I separate my usage.

I get these locally at my grocery store, and makes me wonder if the original op is using some el-cheapo's that have a really poor pf to begin with.

This link is just for specification convenience, not an endorsement of any specific seller:

https://www.amazon.com/GE-95927-LED-Non-Omni-Bulb/dp/B010RH3YY4

In fact, I'm running an even later version - again from the grocery store.

Thing is, even with a good PF like 0.9, I wonder just how much harmonic distortion I'm putting out. I'm probably just going to smoke the msw inverter sooner than later, but the REAL reason I use an msw for my ac-driven led's (aside from liking the light output itself), is the *short term* efficiency (less dc current draw) I get from my msw's, vs a nice PSW inverter like my Samlex types, which cost me a bit more to run from a daily cycling standpoint.

I suppose in the *long run*, the higher quality waveform of a psw inverter will make my ac led's last longer, but for now, I'm going to pay the price for short term with msw.

Heh, too many variables right? Seriously, thanks again for that GREAT article link.

[J.P.M.]

All drummers have Plan B with plenty of jobs out there delivering pizza. You know the joke right?

How many Drummers does it take to deliver a Pizza?

For Dan there is no punch line answer, that was the whole joke.

Glad you had Plan C in place JPM. Bet you are too, I was. JJ Cale Escondido album used Teagarden as the drummer and EC as back up guitar. JJ's death brought about EC sudden semi-retirement. Took a lot out of EC and opened his eyes. I have the album.

Peace and Happy New your to you JPM.

SK

Usually and probably at least 4. One to do it and the others to watch and then argue about how Keith Moon or Louie Bellson would have done it.

In my case, 3 people: 1 drummer and 2 others. I would have always needed sober driver, and someone else who knew how to make change and calculate 10% for the tip.

Looking for plan D - might just be found on the road from Escondido.

Back at'cha on Peace.

Back to the fray for me.

[Sunking]

- percussion, mostly drums - or to serious engineering.

All drummers have Plan B with plenty of jobs out there delivering pizza. You know the joke right?

How many Drummers does it take to deliver a Pizza?

For Dan there is no punch line answer, that was the whole joke.

Glad you had Plan C in place JPM. Bet you are too, I was. JJ Cale Escondido album used Teagarden as the drummer and EC as back up guitar. JJ's death brought about EC sudden semi-retirement. Took a lot out of EC and opened his eyes. I have the album.

Peace and Happy New your to you JPM.

SK

[J.P.M.]

Yep went to school with Teagarden, played in a garage and youth church band with him in the early 70's. He never amounted to much or really did anything. He played with nobody's like Teagarden & Van Winkle, JJ Cale (RIP), Leon Russell (RIP ole friend), Joe Walsh, Bob Seger, and Eric Clapton. Tulsa Ok had a lot of influence on Clapton's music and was frequent visitor to Tulsa when Leon and JJ lived in Tulsa. As a kid growing up, Clapton, George Harrison, Jeff Lynn, and numerous other musicians were seen in Tulsa frequently. Leon had large mansion in Old Town on Utica with the oil barons and a Resort/Recording Studio called Shelter Records out on Grand Lake. Musicians came to Tulsa to just hang out, chill, record, and Jam around local clubs. Clapton used a lot of Tulsa musicians including two drummers David and Jamie Oldaker another guy I know and hung out with. Together with Tulsa musicians, Claptons 2 best albums (461 Ocean Blvd and Slow Hand) made a music style called the TULSA SOUND world famous. Tulsa Sound is a style that combine Rockabilly, Rock, Blues. and Country. Leon and JJ started it, and Eric made it famous.

Told you I was an hard leftie Hippie when I was young and dumb. Drove my parents and ROTC friends crazy when I was young. Kind of glad today I was not an extremely good guitar player back then. I would be dead by now and likely famous as I had the connections at the right time and place. My older sister did all of them, died young, and sort of famous as a Singer. Still today both Friends and Foe call me FBI (effin big indian) including my wifey.

Understood. I bet we do have friends of friends. Long, boring story, I once was at a crossroads of changing careers to music. It never was much more than a hobby/interest - percussion, mostly drums - or to serious engineering. My first set of drums was bought used in 1970 and once owned by Gary Mallaber. I dated the sister of a guitarist in one of his early groups and ran in that music crowd for a few years in Buffalo while making a daytime living as a peddler. Flash forward, JJ Cale (R.I.P. indeed.) was sort of one of my later incarnation neighbors (think: " On The Road to Escondido") and I've got some musician friends I've met in/around Escondido who knew him.

More glory days. The past is a great place to visit once in a while, but a terrible place to live, at least for me. That was then. This is now.

[Sunking]

David Teegarden ? Never met him, and probably a real a long shot, but we may both have old friends from past lives and lost times who know one another. Glory days.

Yep went to school with Teagarden, played in a garage and youth church band with him in the early 70's. He never amounted to much or really did anything. He played with nobody's like Teagarden & Van Winkle, JJ Cale (RIP), Leon Russell (RIP ole friend), Joe Walsh, Bob Seger, and Eric Clapton. Tulsa Ok had a lot of influence on Clapton's music and was frequent visitor to Tulsa when Leon and JJ lived in Tulsa. As a kid growing up, Clapton, George Harrison, Jeff Lynn, and numerous other musicians were seen in Tulsa frequently. Leon had large mansion in Old Town on Utica with the oil barons and a Resort/Recording Studio called Shelter Records out on Grand Lake. Musicians came to Tulsa to just hang out, chill, record, and Jam around local clubs. Clapton used a lot of Tulsa musicians including two drummers David and Jamie Oldaker another guy I know and hung out with. Together with Tulsa musicians, Claptons 2 best albums (461 Ocean Blvd and Slow Hand) made a music style called the TULSA SOUND world famous. Tulsa Sound is a style that combine Rockabilly, Rock, Blues. and Country. Leon and JJ started it, and Eric made it famous.

Told you I was an hard leftie Hippie when I was young and dumb. Drove my parents and ROTC friends crazy when I was young. Kind of glad today I was not an extremely good guitar player back then. I would be dead by now and likely famous as I had the connections at the right time and place. My older sister did all of them, died young, and sort of famous as a Singer. Still today both Friends and Foe call me FBI (effin big indian) including my wifey.

[J.P.M.]

I have seen and used those before in outdoor festivals in my Hippy Rock and Roll days. Teagarden was the drummer player and Grip in our band back in late 70's. Teagarden left to play drums for Bob Seger band along with Tommy Tripplehorn on guitar. aka Silver Bullet Band from Tulsa OK.

Good memories or what is left of the memories. Lot of Coke, Ganja, and groupies back then.

David Teegarden ? Never met him, and probably a real a long shot, but we may both have old friends from past lives and lost times who know one another. Glory days.

[Sunking]

I can sell you harmonic mitigating hardware to stop that issue.

Oh wait. I am not allowed to do that on this forum.

I have seen and used those before in outdoor festivals in my Hippy Rock and Roll days. Teagarden was the drummer player and Grip in our band back in late 70's. Teagarden left to play drums for Bob Seger band along with Tommy Tripplehorn on guitar. aka Silver Bullet Band from Tulsa OK.

Good memories or what is left of the memories. Lot of Coke, Ganja, and groupies back then.