Utilizing excess energy from solar panlel - not a dumpload question ;-)

[inetdog]

Forget supercapacitors except for short term large loads. You need what is essentially an MPPT circuit to extract all the energy from them.
Flow batteries do not seem to scale well to individual RE needs yet.
Fuel cells? Probably not.
Pumped waters storage? If you have the site for it and do not mind less than 50% energy recovery efficiency, maybe.
Hauling heavy weights up tall towers (or tall shafts). Also does not scale well.

[Olberg]

It will work but you are throwing away money, making it complicated, and taking losses in the conversion. Just use the Dump Load and connect it to a resistance heater. Cheap, efficient, simple, and no working or active parts to repair or replace.

Sunking, some companies solar regulators don’t have dump load features built in. Victron is one of those. What I explained above is a hidden feature found in there Multi and Quatro inverters.
If it works and you have a Victron system, no money will be thrown away and its not complicated to set up. Also you can use AC loads instead of DC.
Perhaps a outdoor fountain hooked up in the summer?

All I wish for now is a good way to store the extra energy for a long time.
Where are those commercially cheep fuel cells?
Organic flow batteries?
Graphene supercapacitors?

/O

[Sunking]

It will work but you are throwing away money, making it complicated, and taking losses in the conversion. Just use the Dump Load and connect it to a resistance heater. Cheap, efficient, simple, and no working or active parts to repair or replace.

[Olberg]

As stated here, i guess it is a dump load.

I don't know how to define it.
And it doesn't matter to me.

(But I must say that there is a lot of logical parameters, not only SOC to be set to make use of all the excess power)


All I asked was:
What will happen if I wire an 3kW immersion heater to this output.
Will it dynamically give less and more heat depending on the amount of excessive power given by the inverter or will the load be too heavy to start with and I will end up with a blown fuse or a broken inverter?

Could somebody help me with an answer please.

[harryn]

This is still kind of a "dump load" but you could consider to turn on some lights to enhance plant growth if there is excessive power available.

[Sunking]

Now:
My question to the electricians out there is:
What will happen if I wire an 3kW immersion heater to this output.

That is a Dump Load by any definition. All you have done is made it more complex.

[Olberg]

Breakthrough!!

This info is not in the manual and not on there homepage... so it feels like I´m letting you in on a little secret


After a couple of mails back and forth with Victron I now think I found a way to make use of all PV energy, the opportunity load or load shedding, as Victron apparently calls it.

For you off gridders out there with a Victron Multi or Quattro (even the Multis with the old processor, like mine will work!) the trick is to use the “Relay assistent”. With it one can turn on the ACOut 2 relay when the State of Charge is > 99%.
(Also programming the relay to switch off When SOC <99% is a good idea


This will (if Victron is right) send all the “extra energy” out through the ACOut 2.


We have very little sunlight here in Sweden at the moment but will keep you posted when I get this tested.


Now:
My question to the electricians out there is:
What will happen if I wire an 3kW immersion heater to this output.
Will it dynamically give less and more heat depending on the amount of excessive power given by the inverter or will the load be too heavy to start with and I will end up with a blown fuse or a broken inverter?

/Olberg

[Olberg]

Spencer

Sorry mate. Cant tell from your numbers what firmware you have. You could try asking Victron.
Perhaps they know which version it was shipped with. I must say that they are great at answering questions.
However sometimes, strangely enough, they answer in dutch and I have to use google translate.

The Multi uses it's so called VE Bus to communicate with a computer.
VE Configuration tools are found here: http://www.victronenergy.com/support...oads/software/
and will automatically update and tell you which version of firmware you have.
You will need a special adapter (VE Bus to USB)(more money has to be spent in typical Victron style) to hock the computer up with the multi.

(A color control gx also tells you what processor and firmware you currently are at.)

After a comment on the victron forum yesterday I think i found a way of using all the PV energy even though having the old processor.
Using a grid BlueSolar Grid Inverter and going with the Hub2 v2
Check it out at the bottom of this page:

http://www.victronenergy.com/live/start

and "Overview of available assistants"
Ill have to do more research about it all though. Not to mention, spending some money... arrrggggh

Would be great to know what settings let you use your low end genset for charging.

All the best
/Oliver

[SpencerBizzell]

Hi Oliver,

I had the same issues with the Inverter not accepting the generators power. I put in a second hand, Low end generator. It took a some fiddling but eventually with the right settings on the Victron Multi it started to charge off our generator.
Something rings a bell that it would not work in UPS mode and I think we had to fiddle with the frequency and there was some strict option which needed to be unticked. But I haven't fiddled in a year and have been installing schneider equipmet since then so might be getting mixed up.
I can't remeber exactly what we did to get it right, if I pop up this week to our cottage I will download my config for you.

I am not sure of the firmware we are running but:
The s/n of the unit is (SN:13049201550)
Its description is: MultiPlus C 24/2000/50-30 (CMP242020000)

Is there anyway that I can find out if the new firmware (xx3xx) supports this or do I need to know the firmware in order to know this?

[Olberg]

Hi
I'll try to answer your questions but do also check out Victrons homepage where you will find more extensive info.

The 150/70 charger will know what to do (after you set it up) and keep the batteries charged.
The batteries neg and pos are connected to both the charger and the inverter.
As in the last pic here:

http://www.solar23.com/victron_multiplus.html

In my world it seems extremely unnecessary to run a gas generator when you have so much sun!

The excess energy from hub1 is AC out (110 or 220V depending) and could be used with an external charger as you propose.
Read more about hub1 here:

http://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2014/03/07/hub-1-available/

Hub-1 is only possible with certain processors. You recently bought your multi, so I would expect you have a new one
(Check your number and compare here: http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...plained-EN.pdf )
I have an old processor and need to buy a new multi to get hub1. I have more important stuff to buy, so my hub1 system will have to wait.
But I did buy their color control gx and I can check on all the solar system data possible on both phone and computer.

I'm a bit angry with my old multi at the moment because autumn is here, no sun for 5days and my batteries are down at 70% SOC and the multi seems very picky and rejects my generators sine wave. (at least i think this is the problem).
Perhaps you have some tips on generators and multis?

Best
/Oliver

[SpencerBizzell]

Here is an update on the topic.
Victron are making it possible to use all PV energy produced:

http://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2014/03/07/hub-1-available/

At first it looks easy and very neat.

Then you need to upgrade firmware.
Which you have to mail victron to get. Then you get into hardware trouble.
For the Multi inverter you need one kind of interface and for the mppt you nead an other to even upgrade.
Then you realize you need a whole new inverter with the latest processor to make this happen and if that wasn't enough, you also need a new monitor device, a color control gx apart from cables and stuff.

I must be mad but I'm pursuing this and will tell you how it goes.

Sun just gone down here in Stockholm.
Cheers
/Olberg

Hi Olberg,

I am very interested in this. We have a Multiplus C 2000W 24V 50A which we bought in October 2013, would our inverter support the self consumption Hub-1 setup?
I have not bought our solar charge controller yet and am still deciding what to get.

This is for a very small cottage we have in a remote area in South Africa and are off grid. Currently we just charge our small 240AH FLA 24V battery bank with a 6kw manual start generator.
We were getting 48-72 hours of use from our batteries until we installed a pressure pump, we now get around 24 hours.
We have already bought 4 x Jinko 260W panels, and want to install these panels using a Blue solar charge controller more then likely the 150/70A.

My biggest issue is I do not understand how the Blue Solar MPPT charger will supply power to the Inverter as well as charge the batteries at the correct voltage?
Then the second issue is that we have 2 12V 100AH boat batteries for running our sneaker motors on our Small trout boats which I would like to some how charge using the solar.
99% of the time the cottage is only used on the weekends so ideally I want the solar to create a situation where we do not need to run the generator on the second day if there is sun, which in South Africa there mostly is, and that we can connect up one of the 12V batteries to slowly charge when there is excess solar energy, we have someone up there who can then switch the charger over to the second battery after a few days to charge the second boat battery if we leave them to charge, so they do not need to charge at the same time.

Any news on the new victron self consumption system, do you think my Multiplus compact will support HUb-1 with a new Blue solar MPPT?
Unfortunately I am no up there for a while and do not know the firmware installed.
How would you propose I charge the 2 x 12V batteries, should we use a 220 charger connected to the inverter or should I connect up a 24V - 12V charger which I some how turn on when there is excess solar energy? (I was hoping I could use Blue Solar's the relay to control this, but not sure how it would know how much power to supply to keep the 24V batteries at float and run the 24V charger?

Let me know what you think?

[Olberg]

Victron now has a solution.

Here is an update on the topic.
Victron are making it possible to use all PV energy produced:

http://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2014/03/07/hub-1-available/

At first it looks easy and very neat.

Then you need to upgrade firmware.
Which you have to mail victron to get. Then you get into hardware trouble.
For the Multi inverter you need one kind of interface and for the mppt you nead an other to even upgrade.
Then you realize you need a whole new inverter with the latest processor to make this happen and if that wasn't enough, you also need a new monitor device, a color control gx apart from cables and stuff.

I must be mad but I'm pursuing this and will tell you how it goes.

Sun just gone down here in Stockholm.
Cheers
/Olberg

[DanS26]

The utility acknowledges they are not crediting or paying for my KWH'S. so I am stuck trying to take advantage of opportunity loads. Any suggestions?
THANKS LOST DIY GUY

Install a Nyle system on your water heater (only if non-electric). Then, using a timer, operate only during daytime. Will soak up some of that overage.

Another option is to get a Volt or similar EV that has the capability to charge only during daytime hours. Volt has the capability, don't know about other makes.

[solga]

opportunity loads for excess energy, KWH

SUOTE=inetdog;106881]But if the uncompensated power back to POCO does not cost you anything to generate, it is not a LOSS. It is an unrealized income.
It is a good reason not to oversize your system, but unless you have opportunity loads that you can turn on for local use, such as water heating, to keep your production at maximum, there is no point in throttling back your output to avoid giving away power.
And any expense for systems to avoid that sad state of affairs would truly be wasted, since they would not save you anything.
Throttling systems make sense where you are not allowed to feed energy back into the grid, less to when you just are not paid for it.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this thread!
Please bare with me. I have a GTI diy system. In my state you will not receive compensation for excess generation unless you sign utility contract, which is much below market value,what I pay. My system is a 1.1KWH PDT with a 3.0KWH inverter. No battery. So my economic ensentive is trying to take advantage of opportunity loads ,but how to do this? The utility meter dose give a LCD display indicating grid return KWH'S. The utility acknowledges they are not crediting or paying for my KWH'S. so I am stuck trying to take advantage of opportunity loads. Any suggestions?
THANKS LOST DIY GUY

[inetdog]

I have a similar need in Ga. GTI. NO COMPSATION for excess generation, so retaining generation to use in load is very important. Other wise a loss

But if the uncompensated power back to POCO does not cost you anything to generate, it is not a LOSS. It is an unrealized income.
It is a good reason not to oversize your system, but unless you have opportunity loads that you can turn on for local use, such as water heating, to keep your production at maximum, there is no point in throttling back your output to avoid giving away power.
And any expense for systems to avoid that sad state of affairs would truly be wasted, since they would not save you anything.
Throttling systems make sense where you are not allowed to feed energy back into the grid, less to when you just are not paid for it.