Looking for a good 24V 3000W Inverter/Charger for Offgrid Solar System?

[wazoo]

Hi all
Recently I have buyed a Meanwell TS-700-248 inverter to replace my burnt Victron 800.

Is it normal that this meanwell inverters to produce an appreciable switching noise ??

My old Victron was so silence, just only when fan rotate, but this meanwell looks 10 and 20khz noise spikes under audio spectrum analyzer, and fan is always running....start....stop...start...stop every 10sec, even with low load.

It looks a poor design nowadays, because expected switching noise was solved , at least for small power inverters,

thankU NochiLife for sharing meanwell protocol, will help me to monitor mine

[solardreamer]

Third reason against HF inverters....they have a very hard time handling split-phase 240vAC, which is kinda a requirement for powering a small house these days. Some manufacturers handle this by putting 2 identical HF inverter units in the same chassis, synced 180 degrees apart. Others require you to purchase an autotransformer--which reduces the system efficiency, adds weight, etc., etc., and you're basically right back where you'd be better off with an LF inverter.
LF inverters also handle phase imbalance considerably better (HF inverters even if designed for split-phase output will really complain if the load is imbalanced.)

To each their own though .

Sure but until you can give me an LF inverter that weighs less than 30 lbs it's not a good fit for my use case

BTW, for stacking/paralleling capable HF inverter example, check out the Cotek SD series. You can parallel them for current sharing or stack them with appropriate phase shifts for split-phase or 3-phase power.

[solardreamer]

The config string will vary depending on the inverter make/model. You can read the config string out and save it somewhere so you know how to "repair it" if necessary.
Here's a screenshot I took of a "serial port bridge" (utilizing a Parallax Propeller with a VGA "video driver"--actually on an older touchscreen LCD computer monitor) showing communication between the TS-3000 and the PC software (for "hacking" the protocol):
Blue is the TS-3000. Red is the PC software. You can see the "Q" command for reading status, the "I" command for reading configuration, and the "W" command for writing configuration.
I noticed the "Download" countdown, but do not have any documentation for how that is intended to work.

Thanks for the info. It's quite helpful.

Yes, the MeanWell HF inverters are quite good for their price range and topology (HF inverters). My only complaints with the MeanWell were:

• Could not adjust the OVP shutdown to 60v (as I thought I should be able to from the datasheet). Fine if you're using Lithium-based batteries--but if you're using lead-acid with temperature compensation, you're out of luck.
• No-load current was a solid 1A at 48-60v. (That's at least double what a 6kw LF Genetry Solar inverter runs at no load.) Notice that this specification is not listed in any of the documentation--they only list the "power save" draw, which is with the inverter basically off.
• Maximum efficiency of 91% listed is not significantly greater than a good LF inverter (=85%+)
• Couldn't start a window A/C unit--I have video of this. Didn't blow up though.

The low OVP appears to be the most common complaint I have seen for Mean Well inverters. Fortunately, I use LFP batteries so that's not an issue for me. As for no load current, lower is generally better provided it does not mean degrading other important inverter attributes (performance, durability, quality, etc.). So, it's not really a valid comparison unless other key attributes are similar. For example, I have seen various barebone HF inverters with ~0.25A no load current but they don't have the snubbers to protect against transients necessary to ensure long inverter lifespan, inadequate capacitance to support high loads without significant waveform distortions and little or no output filtering to ensure low EMI and low voltage and current THD.

More people than you think want to run A/Cs on their off-grid systems. It's actually a very common question--well, when you think about it, most people want to "live like normal on solar", instead of stripping down their requirements to the bare minimum.

I was thinking permanently off-grid people would still have A/C but perhaps more energy/power efficient ones (e.g. variable speed heat pumps, mini-splits, etc.) rather than a traditional big central A/C that requires huge surge power to start.

I'm the "Sid" in said videos...yeah, the explosions were definitely unnerving (sounds like a gun going off when all that power gets misdirected in the FETs)...but we did get it solved.
Yes, it could be said that starting from scratch could be better--BUT if I can redesign based off an existing design, then I don't completely have to "reinvent the wheel." As of right now, the next batch of GS inverters will not use a single PJ board--every single board in the inverter will have been designed on my desk, with all specification design requirements determined in the same place.

It's great to see GS inverters moving away from PJ. PJ inverters are amazingly cheap but amazingly bad too. I wonder if they make more money from selling new inverters or repair parts for failed inverters.

Worth noting: the no-load current of the GS 12kw inverter prototype seen in said videos...is significantly LOWER than that of the 3kw Mean Well TS-3000 (0.7-0.8A vs 1.0A). Just sayin'

As of right now, I have zero plans to make an HF inverter...because their surge capacity is extremely low (due to designing the boost converter for the stated redline output and no further)...and the output FETs / IGBTs don't have any "protection" against dirty loads / backfeed. Adding to that, HF inverters have to have a completely separate "Battery charge" circuit--I am not aware of any HF inverter that can use the existing "inverter" circuitry in reverse to charge the battery. LF inverters are considerably more versatile in design by that regard, as no extra circuitry has to be added for battery charge. LF inverters can also (if properly designed/programmed!) easily handle grid-tie solar arrays, using excess power from them to charge the batteries, and shutting the grid-ties down when the batteries are full, etc.

To me, HF and LF inverters have different target use cases. As I mentioned before, I would use LF inverters if weight wasn't an issue. LF inverters can certainly do many things but that doesn't mean HF inverters can't do the same. Check out the Cotek SC series which is a bidirectional inverter/charger and has the ability to load share with a grid or generator AC input. Also, as you may know, many of the solar hybrid inverters are based on HF topologies.

[NochiLife]

Third reason against HF inverters....they have a very hard time handling split-phase 240vAC, which is kinda a requirement for powering a small house these days. Some manufacturers handle this by putting 2 identical HF inverter units in the same chassis, synced 180 degrees apart. Others require you to purchase an autotransformer--which reduces the system efficiency, adds weight, etc., etc., and you're basically right back where you'd be better off with an LF inverter.
LF inverters also handle phase imbalance considerably better (HF inverters even if designed for split-phase output will really complain if the load is imbalanced.)

To each their own though .

[NochiLife]

Thanks for the doc. It would be great if you could post the config string.

The config string will vary depending on the inverter make/model. You can read the config string out and save it somewhere so you know how to "repair it" if necessary.
Here's a screenshot I took of a "serial port bridge" (utilizing a Parallax Propeller with a VGA "video driver"--actually on an older touchscreen LCD computer monitor) showing communication between the TS-3000 and the PC software (for "hacking" the protocol):
Untitled.jpg
Blue is the TS-3000. Red is the PC software. You can see the "Q" command for reading status, the "I" command for reading configuration, and the "W" command for writing configuration.
I noticed the "Download" countdown, but do not have any documentation for how that is intended to work.

Going from Mean Well to Power Jack seems like quite a few steps down. I am guess you really wanted surge power but went with HF inverter for cost reasons which is ultimately a losing proposition. If weight wasn't an issue I would also go with LF inverters. I only have experience with Mean Well power supplies which has been good. The TN/TS inverters look to be better/more reliable than the typical HF inverters (Chinese and non-Chinese) that are little time bombs by design.

Yes, the MeanWell HF inverters are quite good for their price range and topology (HF inverters). My only complaints with the MeanWell were:

• Could not adjust the OVP shutdown to 60v (as I thought I should be able to from the datasheet). Fine if you're using Lithium-based batteries--but if you're using lead-acid with temperature compensation, you're out of luck.
• No-load current was a solid 1A at 48-60v. (That's at least double what a 6kw LF Genetry Solar inverter runs at no load.) Notice that this specification is not listed in any of the documentation--they only list the "power save" draw, which is with the inverter basically off.
• Maximum efficiency of 91% listed is not significantly greater than a good LF inverter (=85%+)
• Couldn't start a window A/C unit--I have video of this. Didn't blow up though.

It is also worth noting that you have to periodically open the MeanWell inverter up and clean all the dust out of it. If you do, it should live for years and years to come.
If you don't, you'll end up with this:
Untitled2.jpg
(screenshot from a chat with the guy I sold my MeanWell to, a year or 2 later...he'd bought a second one shortly after buying the one I had, and I have no idea which one bit the dust here!)
The inverter in question here hit the dumpster before I was aware of it; I'd have been curious to see what exactly went wrong with it.

I have seen a few of the GS inverter videos. Assuming you are the one doing the testing in the explosion videos, it's quite impressive what you have done. You should have started from scratch from the beginning then trying to fix Power Jack designs. It's great that you are offering nice alternatives between the junk LF inverters and the Cadillac LF inverters. It's interesting to see big central A/C's running off-grid but I do wonder if that's really a common scenario for full time off-grid people. I would be interested if you ever make an HF inverter.

More people than you think want to run A/Cs on their off-grid systems. It's actually a very common question--well, when you think about it, most people want to "live like normal on solar", instead of stripping down their requirements to the bare minimum.

I'm the "Sid" in said videos...yeah, the explosions were definitely unnerving (sounds like a gun going off when all that power gets misdirected in the FETs)...but we did get it solved.
Yes, it could be said that starting from scratch could be better--BUT if I can redesign based off an existing design, then I don't completely have to "reinvent the wheel." As of right now, the next batch of GS inverters will not use a single PJ board--every single board in the inverter will have been designed on my desk, with all specification design requirements determined in the same place.
Worth noting: the no-load current of the GS 12kw inverter prototype seen in said videos...is significantly LOWER than that of the 3kw Mean Well TS-3000 (0.7-0.8A vs 1.0A). Just sayin'

As of right now, I have zero plans to make an HF inverter...because their surge capacity is extremely low (due to designing the boost converter for the stated redline output and no further)...and the output FETs / IGBTs don't have any "protection" against dirty loads / backfeed. Adding to that, HF inverters have to have a completely separate "Battery charge" circuit--I am not aware of any HF inverter that can use the existing "inverter" circuitry in reverse to charge the battery. LF inverters are considerably more versatile in design by that regard, as no extra circuitry has to be added for battery charge. LF inverters can also (if properly designed/programmed!) easily handle grid-tie solar arrays, using excess power from them to charge the batteries, and shutting the grid-ties down when the batteries are full, etc.

[solardreamer]

Attached is the "official" MeanWell RS-232 specification document. Was trying to get it into PDF, but OpenOffice crashes every single time, AND the original DOC file is over the 145kb limit for forum attachments...so it's in ODT (Openoffice Document Format)...BUT the forum won't allow uploading a file with the proper ODT extension, so the file has a "DOC" extension just so I can attach it....

The "serious security issue" that I discovered was that if you send the "W" character (write config) immediately followed by a carriage return, it'll zero out the MeanWell's config string--and then the inverter becomes a useless brick. You have to know the original data to write back in order to get it to boot up! (I do have screenshots of the string at least from the TS-3000-148 that I had.)

Thanks for the doc. It would be great if you could post the config string.

Worth noting that I moved on from the chintzy Chinese HF junk inverter to a Power Jack (yeah, you can laugh at me!), only to get far further into inverter design than I ever expected...and now have pretty much completely designed a new inverter altogether, the Genetry Solar inverter. https://www.genetrysolar.com/gs-inve...inverter-b4w3h
While the GS inverters don't currently have a hardwire comm port on them, it can be added at a later date...that is, once I get the little adapter addon boards ordered (except for a chassis connector mounting hole!) You can currently access/control them via local network (WIFI), or remote server (MQTT). I like settings--and the inverters are chock full of them!
Best part? No load current is less than the Mean Well TS-3000 (48v @ 0.5A for a 6kw GS vs 48v @ 1.0A for the 3kw MW)...AND as they're an LF inverter design, they handle surge loads extremely well.

Going from Mean Well to Power Jack seems like quite a few steps down. I am guess you really wanted surge power but went with HF inverter for cost reasons which is ultimately a losing proposition. If weight wasn't an issue I would also go with LF inverters. I only have experience with Mean Well power supplies which has been good. The TN/TS inverters look to be better/more reliable than the typical HF inverters (Chinese and non-Chinese) that are little time bombs by design.

I have seen a few of the GS inverter videos. Assuming you are the one doing the testing in the explosion videos, it's quite impressive what you have done. You should have started from scratch from the beginning then trying to fix Power Jack designs. It's great that you are offering nice alternatives between the junk LF inverters and the Cadillac LF inverters. It's interesting to see big central A/C's running off-grid but I do wonder if that's really a common scenario for full time off-grid people. I would be interested if you ever make an HF inverter.

[NochiLife]

Attached is the "official" MeanWell RS-232 specification document. Was trying to get it into PDF, but OpenOffice crashes every single time, AND the original DOC file is over the 145kb limit for forum attachments...so it's in ODT (Openoffice Document Format)...BUT the forum won't allow uploading a file with the proper ODT extension, so the file has a "DOC" extension just so I can attach it....

The "serious security issue" that I discovered was that if you send the "W" character (write config) immediately followed by a carriage return, it'll zero out the MeanWell's config string--and then the inverter becomes a useless brick. You have to know the original data to write back in order to get it to boot up! (I do have screenshots of the string at least from the TS-3000-148 that I had.)


Worth noting that I moved on from the chintzy Chinese HF junk inverter to a Power Jack (yeah, you can laugh at me!), only to get far further into inverter design than I ever expected...and now have pretty much completely designed a new inverter altogether, the Genetry Solar inverter. https://www.genetrysolar.com/gs-inve...inverter-b4w3h
While the GS inverters don't currently have a hardwire comm port on them, it can be added at a later date...that is, once I get the little adapter addon boards ordered (except for a chassis connector mounting hole!) You can currently access/control them via local network (WIFI), or remote server (MQTT). I like settings--and the inverters are chock full of them!
Best part? No load current is less than the Mean Well TS-3000 (48v @ 0.5A for a 6kw GS vs 48v @ 1.0A for the 3kw MW)...AND as they're an LF inverter design, they handle surge loads extremely well.

[solardreamer]

I was able to reverse-engineer the RS-232 communication protocol on the Mean Well TS-3000 (after they told me that they could not provide the spec)...and then contacted them again to let them know of a serious security issue with the protocol. That's when they finally sent me the official communication spec, but it wasn't anything new to me anyway by that point.

It looks like a nice inverter. Can you share the RS232 info?

[NochiLife]

Similar for Morningstar. They give free PDF downloads of the full MODBUS spec communications for all of their PWM and MPPT controllers. I mean, you don't even have to ask for it--they're just downloads on the product page. As a bonus, their Tristar MPPTs don't have any fans.

[Xplode]

It's annoying when companies won't send out basic details like that. It's not encrypted, is not like we can't reverse engineer it. Lol

One of the reasons I like EPEver as well. They're not top tier controllers by any means, but they did send me a color document with commented screen caps and call/response examples for their modbus scheme. Almost the full list of addresses as well. Very VERY useful and well put together documentation, especially for an non English overseas manufacturer. So I was able to build my own SD/cellular data logger.

[NochiLife]

Aims also does have good support. I didn't want to buy the LCD control panel so I emailed and asked for the pinout on their control port, as well as the communication protocol for the rs232 port and they sent me details on both.

Wow, that's very personable! I was able to reverse-engineer the RS-232 communication protocol on the Mean Well TS-3000 (after they told me that they could not provide the spec)...and then contacted them again to let them know of a serious security issue with the protocol. That's when they finally sent me the official communication spec, but it wasn't anything new to me anyway by that point.

[Xplode]

The AIMS units aren't super configurable. There's a set of dip switches for choosing between a few low voltage cutoff settings, and whether the unit operates more as a power backup, or as primary source. It does support equalize charging via a selector on the front. Instruction booklet is fairly clear and outlines it all if you want to see.

I'm not sure of the victron options to do a comparison. I opted for AIMs due to the lower cost when compared to other units of similar capacity that included a charger. I also needed to run a fridge on my first install, so the low frequency units being very capable of 6000W surge for several seconds meant i had no issues with startup. Haven't seen a lot of other companies that post actual numbers for how many seconds you can surge at 2x and 3x rated output.

Been running my first one for almost a year now and the other two for several months. Seem to be working well.

Aims also does have good support. I didn't want to buy the LCD control panel so I emailed and asked for the pinout on their control port, as well as the communication protocol for the rs232 port and they sent me details on both.

[Bozant]

Interesting!

After giving up on Renogy (their products and otherwise) l was looking at Aims components; their charge controllers, their lithium batteries and inverter chargers but somehow got diverted to Victron and BattleBorn. Wondering what's a better choice? Aims is a bit less expensive, good tech support (Victron has none) and you don't have to buy a windows based laptop to configure and monitor Victron Inverter Charger.

What do you solar experts on this forum think about other Aims Power products; their lithium batteries etc.?

[Xplode]

I've been having good success with the AIMScorp low frequency inverters. I've got 2000 and 3000w units running with no issues. They are big and heavy with a physical transformer inside it.

The idle losses are a bit high on the 3000W but even my 2000W will run my fridge and a saw and lights and not break a sweat. (Properly capable of overload as well).

Built in charger seems to work well also.

[NochiLife]

One inverter I can suggest is the Mean Well TS-3000. I personally used a TS-3000-148F, and was relatively pleased with it (only sold it because I was using lead-acid batteries at the time, and it would go into overvoltage shutdown @ 58v). Actually fairly cheap, and probably about as good as a high-frequency inverter could be. Comes from a name-brand company (that most here have probably never heard of; sorry if I ruffle any feathers!), with a three-year warranty. I was able to run a small window A/C with it, run an electric stapler, circular saws, etc. It was just a smidge weaker than the grid. (It couldn't start a large window A/C unit, though.)

Now, if only I'd gone to LiFePo4 before selling the Mean Well, and replacing it with a Chinese junker ...that can't run a stapler, can't run ANY A/C, barely starts a circular saw, and seriously complains if I try to run two appliances. Thing is, the Chinese inverter has the ABILITY to supply 3,000W (verified with two space heaters), it just has a major flaw with the output drivers that causes it to choke with inductive loads. I'll try to fix it--and I'll either fix it, or blow it up .

The Mean Well TS-3000 also has an automatic changeover from grid power (if available). Mean Well also offers the TN-3000 series that also has a "solar charger" as well as a grid-powered battery charger; however, I don't recommend it, as the solar charger appears to be simply a relay--not even a PWM system. Definitely not an MPPT. ($662 @ Amazon.)

The TS-3000 comes in 12, 24, and 48v versions. Once again, the software is Windows only--but there is a very high chance you would be able to run configuration software in Wine (Mac/Linux). It can also be configured from the front panel with a button.
The 24v version is only $630 at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/MEAN-WELL-TS-.../dp/B008X7HRPS

CAVEAT: Keep in mind that if you're planning expand and upgrade in the future, you might be better off with the more expensive Victron, which can be daisy-chained in multiple configurations. The Mean Well is not expandable. Just my 2 cents.