The intelligent buyers guide to NiFe / Truly dry Rolls Surrette supplier.

[Sunking]

I was an electronic technician by trade. Retired now. Just not in the power field. More in the computer / atmospheric instrumentation / measurement field.

OK then you have the technical and math skills to do comparisons.

For a Nife system you are going to want at least a 3-day reserve capacity minimum, and 5 day capacity for FLA. Armed with that info do some cost benefit analysis.

First step is determine the difference in support equipment mainly panel wattage and charge controller size. NiFe has a poor charge efficiency of 60% vs 80 to 90% for FLA. What that means is it wil take more panel wattage and charge controller amps using NiFe. For example if you need say 5 Kwh/day, winter Insolation is 3 hours, using MPPT charge controller, battery voltage 48 volts. Using FLA would take a 2500 watts with a 60 amp MPPT charge controller,. NiFe will take 3400 watts and a 80 amp CC. That is about a $2000 difference so far.

A good quality Rolls 5000 Series FLA battery with a 10 year warranty will cost you roughly $210/Kwh. It would require a capacity of 25 Kwh for a 5-day capacity. So $210 x 25 = $5250.

For a NiFe from a Chi-Com manufacture will require a 15 Kwh battery. I do not know exactly what a Chi-Com $/Kwh cost are, or what warranty the carry, but my best estimate will cost around $800/Kwh. So for a 15 Kwh NiFe is $800 x 15 = $12,000.

So initial installation cost difference is roughly $9000 higher with NiFe option.

Well here is what I will say about it. Rolls is one of the very best in the biz and been around for 80 years with excellent customer service. Treat the batteries right and you will get 7 to 10 years of service out of the. You will have saved enough to buy 2 more replacement sets in the future so you are looking at 30 years.

With the Chi-Com NiFe battery I cannot tell you how long they have been around, the quality of the product, how long it will actually last, maintenance cost, costcustomer service, and warranty replacement.

FWIW I have no vested interest in any battery technology or chemistry. Just 30+ years of experience working with them.

Hope that helps.

Sent via Droid.

[russ]

News about bad results are as important as news about good results - maybe not for the one doing the test but to the rest of us.

[plataoplomo]

Then we can count on you to document your results for us, whichever way you go, right?

definitely.

What I would like is some recommendations on replacement banks in an 800ah -> 1000ah range. Longevity and durability being the highest rated criterion.

[inetdog]

More in the computer / atmospheric instrumentation / measurement field.

Then we can count on you to document your results for us, whichever way you go, right?

[plataoplomo]

I think Mike has a pretty firm grip on NiFe and someones word who you should trust with a lot of weight.

I've already PM'd and conversed with Mike. Nice guy. I really appreciate him taking the time to talk to me. The gist I got from him was wait and see. If an early electrolyte cycle happened it was a bad call, if not .... maybe not. Y'all know more from him than I do.

I've PM'd Bill and talked a bit with him also.

I am quickly burning my way through my first battery bank. I was astute enough not to go gold plated on my first bank. Figuring that I would make a lot of mistakes. And I have.

I give my current bank about a year of life left before I am forced to do something. Now that I am looking forward, I am investigating what solutions exist.

I was an electronic technician by trade. Retired now. Just not in the power field. More in the computer / atmospheric instrumentation / measurement field.

[Sunking]

Mike will be an unbiased expert resource on NiFe use from a practical perspective, but not for another few years at the earliest.

I think Mike has a pretty firm grip on NiFe and someones word who you should trust with a lot of weight. Mike has had both high end FLA, and now new NiFe. I gather from reading all his post on the subject of NiFe is he regrets it, but is now stuck with it and deeply invested not to just give it up. I do know Mike is not biased and will tell you exactly what he thinks. As Mike is a real Engineer, I woul dgive his advice a lot of weight to go along with his personal experience.

From my experience here is those who advocate NiFe batteries have vested interest in one form or another. I will not name names as they are very easy to spot out. Just take what they say knowing they are heavily biased and make their living selling NiFe or support products.

[plataoplomo]

and we are back in the same old flame wars we have seen before.

It's times like this that I wonder if the Amish know something I don't.

[inetdog]

How about post a sticky that clearly spells it all out. Help the next guy avoid re-researching the wheel.

Gel and refine my post and others research down into a numbered set of real world statements about different types of battery chemistry. Highlight the weaknesses of each chemistry.

So people REALLY know what they are getting themselves into.

Any such statements will be disputed by somebody, and we are back in the same old flame wars we have seen before.
If there is nobody that people will agree to accept as an authority on this (definitely not the same as saying that there is nobody who IS an authority on this!) then an open sticky thread will serve no useful purpose.

Dereck is, I think, indisputably an authority on Lead Acid chemistry and available battery types in that chemistry, and very knowledgeable about other chemistries besides. But a lot of people will not take his word for anything.
Mike will be an unbiased expert resource on NiFe use from a practical perspective, but he is not willing to offer a firm conclusion for a few years yet. He has already described early frustrations and issues which he is trying to work past, and those are revealing. But he is still hoping that he has been doing something wrong.
Sundetective has done a lot of research on NiFe, but is not able to convince people through his posts.

I do not see a clean solution other than reading all of the relevant threads and posts, and then evaluating the arguments for yourself.

[plataoplomo]

I am not going to debate this as it is a Dead Horse issue beat to death.

How about post a sticky that clearly spells it all out. Help the next guy avoid re-researching the wheel.

Gel and refine my post and others research down into a numbered set of real world statements about different types of battery chemistry. Highlight the weaknesses of each chemistry.

So people REALLY know what they are getting themselves into.

[plataoplomo]

affordable treatments

being damned expensive.

mostly healthy indefinitely

being based on a vertical just in time supply chain only a few thousand miles long. House of cards.




Looks like a cattle chute, smells like a cattle chute, produces the same results as a cattle chute ....... must be a cattle chute.

[Sunking]

On the one hand, (lead acid), If you have one minor incident you are on the fast downward spiral of total bank replacement.

LA batteries can take a lot of abuse, just about as as much as NiFe can. I am not going to debate this as it is a Dead Horse issue beat to death. As a professional I would never recommend NiFe to anyone for any purpose.

[inetdog]

But that is like saying "having MS is better than having AIDS".

On the one hand, (lead acid), If you have one minor incident you are on the fast downward spiral of total bank replacement. Once cell gets a little sulphinated your screwed. Overcharge a cell a few times .... you goose is cooked. You damn near have to create a clinical environment and maintain it.

On the other hand, (Nickel Iron), It's largely unknown ..... AND IT SHOULDN'T BE. Consumables are unknown, expensive, and impossible to reliably source. Costs are ridiculous. Efficiency is worse.

All the manufacturers exclusively design ,build, advocate, and ultimately force you to into a chemical technology that is clearly a house of cards.


So take your choice ..... Leprosy or Bubonic.

Sorry just a bit frustrated here.

Perhaps a more accurate analogy would be between a chronic (and incurable) disease with a known set of affordable treatments which will keep you alive and mostly healthy indefinitely, and a disease for which there is a very expensive "miracle cure" which will still require you to pay for expensive drugs the rest of your life.

[plataoplomo]

The most economical and best solution is a quality flooded lead acid deep cycle battery. .

But that is like saying "having MS is better than having AIDS".

On the one hand, (lead acid), If you have one minor incident you are on the fast downward spiral of total bank replacement. Once cell gets a little sulphinated your screwed. Overcharge a cell a few times .... you goose is cooked. You damn near have to create a clinical environment and maintain it.

On the other hand, (Nickel Iron), It's largely unknown ..... AND IT SHOULDN'T BE. Consumables are unknown, expensive, and impossible to reliably source. Costs are ridiculous. Efficiency is worse.

All the manufacturers exclusively design ,build, advocate, and ultimately force you to into a chemical technology that is clearly a house of cards.


So take your choice ..... Leprosy or Bubonic.

Sorry just a bit frustrated here.

[Sunking]

Guys it is real simple and very easy to understand. The most economical and best solution is a quality flooded lead acid deep cycle battery. There is a very good reason USA manufactures quit making NiFe batteries 40 years ago, and Edison battery sold it 50 years ago. It is just simply an inferior product up against today's lead acid battery technology.

Lithium Ion is not ready for the RE market. You can even argue it is not ready for the Electric Vehicle market. It is just too expensive and too short of a life cycle to be used in RE applications. Th every best LFP batteries only have a life cycle of 1000 to 2000 cycles and those cost about $1.20/wh just about the same price as NiFe. Compare that with lead acid of roughly $0.20/wh and 5000 cycles and you have a crystal clear market winner. Lithium has a long way to go to be competitive to lead acid. The only market you can justify using lithium is in Electric Vehicles where specific energy density (weight and volume) are of primary concern. Weight and space are of little concern with RE applications. Couple that with 400 to 600% higher cost and shorter life span and lithium is out of reach and a poor choice just like NiFe.

[Fatawan]

I am not at all informed on this whole battery thing, but i have been searching around for something similar to what you are doing. Is lithium also an option? I have been going back and forth with Victron about their system. They quoted me a retail price for 25kWh of battery + their Lynx BMS for 27,000 Euro. In your application, that would be three of their batteries(180 aH/4.75kWh each) vs. 5 in my quote, so about 15,000 euro.

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet_Lithium_ion_rev03_EN_web.pdf