carbonated NiFe issues

[Sundetective]

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<snip from Changhong>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

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Hello BB,

We have been importing their predecessor cells (WUZHOU)and there cells (Chanchong) since 1995. We have thousands of cells in the field and to date (ie since 1995, we know of only ONE customer to date that has had to charge the electrolyte out. If people are changing the electrolyte they are buying the chemicals from someone else because they sure have not come to us for replacement electrolyte!

We have a 500 AH, 24V in our possession. It was installed in 1996, used daily on a PV off grid system, and we changed electrolyte in 2001. We are now waiting on samples from that same set to see what the carbonate concentration is. That set was tested in 2004 and tested at 100% of rated C/5 capacity. It is now 2011 and we want to test some of the cells. Therefore, from ACTUAL field experience it seems that China has it wrong. It seems to me that the worse case senario is about 5 years maybe. But the best case up to 10 years. Even at its worse case, say 5 years, changing electrolyte sure beats buying a whole new battery bank every 5-7 years for a medium priced L16 battery bank.

We are working with the manufacturer to get them to change the cell body to allow a small liquid pump to be put in the cell in which you could suck out the fluid (like you do in a car engine) and make the electrolyte change a "snap".

I believe that one does have to be aware that the cells WILL NEED an electrolyte change during the batteries lifetime. How many electrolyte changes seems to still be a mystery. I also believe that the changes will depend on how well you keep the air out of the cells. We are working on a system that will prevent any air from entering the cells.

When I have more time I may address some of your other concerns.

JD
CEO BeUtilityFree, Inc

JD,

The 500 Amp Hour Cells you installed in 1996. Who made them?

How much does it cost for the YEARLY Carbonate Test per Cell which BUF demands and requires -

or the Battery Guarantee becomes VOID.

How much do 500 gram canisters of top quality Lithium Hydroxide cost nowadays? Not that weak 56% stuff.

What about a set of (40) 800 Amp Hour NiFe Cells that need 28,000 grams (Twenty Eight Thousand) grams (US)
of LiOH powder?

When Changhong says to mix the KOH with distilled water at a weight ratio of 1 part Flake to 3 parts Water
would that be around 333 grams of KOH per Liter of distilled water?

Then add the 40 grams of LiOH per liter of water?
That one has been killing me with conflicting data.

At that rate we are talking about over 500 Pounds (US) of KOH Flake plus the 28,000 grams of LiOH.


You see JD it is a very legitimate concern when the cost of Electrolyte for the 800 Series could begin to approach
the cost of a something like an equal amount of Kilowatt Hours in a 5000 Series Set of Rolls Surrette Batteries.
That's what I'mmmmm talking about. Reality strikes deep on this deal !!

Then my initial cost for the NiFe Cells with a good discount is about equal to a complete set of the 820 Ah Rolls 5000 Series, 48 Volt,

plus 2 (TWO) MORE Stored Sets of the Rolls 820 Ah, 48 Volt, 5000 Series batteries that are the Rare, TRUE DRY CELLS,

that have VACUUM PACKED CELLS - with Free Shipping. Three sets of Batteries total.

Those Dry Packed Cells are a Long Story which I was told by the Plant Manager (at the time) when Surrette
put the big expensive drying room in.

The same price for 3 sets of the Rolls is going to out do any claims that Changhong has ever made ANYTIME, Anywhere
in a number of ways

Yet I still think the NiFe batteries may be worth all this expense including the expensive UNTOLD STORY.
We are getting close to that determination. The reason I feel they may be worth the money is not for the 'Party Line' reasons.
Hang around and they will be revealed to you - if I have time

I'm sorry to hear that Changhong isn't staying on top of it and may have lost control of their faculties.
With the Chinese Government tying them up at 38,000 (or so) battery orders at a clip I would hate to hear that someone got
stood up in front of a wall and shot for lying to everybody.
Never did hear them talk of Mineral OIL or ANY other Float Oil for instance.
They are very curious, do a lot of testing but are very cautious with their Lips.

Changhong has sung the same tune, in writing, about Carbonate Fears and Foreboding in their Official NiFe Battery
Operators and Maintenance Manuals for many years now. The story never changes very much.

It is nice to hear you have a method to avoid the destructive, deadly potassium carbonate infiltration - coming Someday.

If a person lays out the big money to the tune of $32,800.00 + shipping (List price) what do you suggest to

Stop that Air from hitting that Electrolyte Today. The New electrolyte runs THOUSANDS of Dollars (US).

Word is that a big USA Price War is coming soon with Changhong NiFe Cells.
More people will be able to enjoy them.


Thank-you,


BB

Electrolyte changing issue

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<snip from Changhong>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................
Hello BB,

We have been importing their predecessor cells (WUZHOU)and there cells (Chanchong) since 1995. We have thousands of cells in the field and to date (ie since 1995, we know of only ONE customer to date that has had to charge the electrolyte out. If people are changing the electrolyte they are buying the chemicals from someone else because they sure have not come to us for replacement electrolyte!

We have a 500 AH, 24V in our possession. It was installed in 1996, used daily on a PV off grid system, and we changed electrolyte in 2001. We are now waiting on samples from that same set to see what the carbonate concentration is. That set was tested in 2004 and tested at 100% of rated C/5 capacity. It is now 2011 and we want to test some of the cells. Therefore, from ACTUAL field experience it seems that China has it wrong. It seems to me that the worse case senario is about 5 years maybe. But the best case up to 10 years. Even at its worse case, say 5 years, changing electrolyte sure beats buying a whole new battery bank every 5-7 years for a medium priced L16 battery bank.

We are working with the manufacturer to get them to change the cell body to allow a small liquid pump to be put in the cell in which you could suck out the fluid (like you do in a car engine) and make the electrolyte change a "snap".

I believe that one does have to be aware that the cells WILL NEED an electrolyte change during the batteries lifetime. How many electrolyte changes seems to still be a mystery. I also believe that the changes will depend on how well you keep the air out of the cells. We are working on a system that will prevent any air from entering the cells.

When I have more time I may address some of your other concerns.

JD
CEO BeUtilityFree, Inc

[Sundetective]

Congratulations! I rec'd mine a few weeks ago. [the TN700 but 12 v. bank]. I am presently in the charge/discharge cycle to get them up to capacity. Discharging is a chore, let me tell you. Simple to get them down to about 10.5 volts, further down than that I'm using the 12 v. lighting in our home. [Leaving them all on for a couple days, except in the bedroom.] I am on the second discharge and want to do one more after this. I did let them run the house for a few days at first, due to time constraints on my part and to get a quick look at how they'd do. They did fine. I also charged them up fully once and put no loads on them, and after three days, they had dropped only 0.2 to 0.3 volts.

I came on this forum some months ago with questions about these batteries but was met with such derision I figured this was the wrong forum. Maybe not, if you are also going this direction.

Congrat's again. Once mine left Shanghai, it was about 2 1/2 weeks til they hit shore in the LA area. Then it was something like three days til customs got around to releasing them. So you probably have about three weeks more waiting...once the ship sails.

Hello,

Has anyone taken any electrolyte temperature readings as they charge their NiFe batteries?
What little info that Changhong Battery Co. does release over the years can be very interesting.
It doesn't seem like that many people have actually read what they have to say since it
conflicts with so many stories and half truths. When I first heard about NiFe years ago I felt that the
electrolyte would be the biggest concern. Now I know it is.

You can take giant leaps in the amount of the electrolyte reservoir size per 100 Amp Hours
by slightly changing a Cell size. Also since Changhong jumped from 10 grams per Liter of LiOH.H2O
prior to January 2008 to a whopping 40 grams per litter after 1/08. You are now talking big money.
Someone might want the jumbo electrolyte size or they may not. The Temp readings will tell us all.

Certain people looking for greater charging efficiency claim to be using well over 50% more Lithium Hydroxide
than 40 grams per liter.
If a large Cell held say 17.5 Liters of electrolyte at 40 grams per Liter your up to 700 grams PER CELL Per Change.

How much does it cost for 700 grams of Reagent Grade or Battery Grade LiOH.H20 $
Times 10? Times 20? Times 40?

What about float oil to slow down the carbonate infestation? Can Mineral Oil with no written approval VOID your warranty?
What about how often you want to Really change the Electrolyte in these NiFe batteries.

Smart Charging Voltage and Current Levels - not monkey see, monkey do?
What about bad Charging advice.

These are controversial subjects being pushed, poked and prodded lately.
The answers may not wind up being what you think.

Can the proper knowledge and simple tactics cut your problems and your overhead by
a drastic percentage?

What is the language in the New guarantee and what does it mean? What does a new NiFe warranty say as of August 1, 2011
and why does it say what it now says. Who really knows what is happening?

The electrolyte management could really benefit from someone that actually put out the big money
on Big Cells sticking a cheap thermometer in a Cell during various stages of charging.

Changhong is not talking about years and years before you worry about that electrolyte.
Keep in mind they are the guys making most of the NiFe batteries so all the he said, she said, is gone now.
It's the Builders SAY.

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<snip from Changhong>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................

They say what they mean and mean what they say.

Their Trouble Shooting sections will slap you silly with reasons why you may have to change that Very Expensive go-go juice.
Let's eliminate the reasons.

I am for the batteries - not against them but I needed to know the truth so it could set me free from
THOUSANDS of Dollars of potential premature and unnecessary damage and expenses by playing the sweetboy.

If the Internal Resistance numbers are close to Ni-cad, which some Chinese outfits do publish, then the sales pitch of spending
a smaller amount (just to try them) on small 100 AMP Cells will not cut it AT ALL. I'm guessing they are very similar.
Charging is it's own subject not brushed on here.

You probably need the big money battery test bed to get measurements that count.
You also need a crowd that actually thinks and cares.
Where has this simple info been all this time??

There are a LOT of considerations but this is plenty for right now.

I figure the Electrolyte Temperature and Life Span is just the beginning of a whole can of worms.
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<snip> From the 2010 Brochure:

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'

1.6.8 Effect of Temperature on Lifetime

Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell is designed for 20- year service life , but the increase in the temperature of electrolyte

will r e d u c e t h e e x p e c t e d l i f e. In general , every 9℃ increase in temperature over the normal ambient temperature of 25℃

r e d u c e s t h e s e r v i c e l i f e o f Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell by 20%. For lead-acid batteries , it will be 50%.

The following figure shows the comparison graph of life expected at high temperature for both Ni-Fe and lead-acid batteries.
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The TN Series and the 'Solar' NF-S series are said to be the same item with a different name.
However the Changhong literature does show slight differences in the electrolyte volumes.
That may just be a sales fake since they claim the same case sizes.

Extremely interesting batteries!

BB