carbonated NiFe issues

[Sundetective]

Good, lets put the Carbonate issue this to rest for now, but I doubt you can. Once you come up with some ACTUAL facts of carbonate problems in electrolyte then post them, but until then don't get people all riled up with what ever the Chinese may say in some of their manuals. As I have pointed out, and you don't seem to acknowledge, is that actual field experience does not seem to match what they say. One thing you have not pointed out is that when the cell electrolyte reaches 50/g/liter then the electrolyte should be changed. The only way I know you can only find that out through titration.

The new warranty will be updated in the V 1.7 manual due to be completed early next week.

I guess you did not read my post very well, I said that the guy in 2009 receievd PP cases and NOT the clear plastic cases. The issue was not the material but the PHYSICAL case size. I hope you get it this time! How do you know who he spoke with?

You may be right about "being an inocent victim of that storm" but I have pointed out why I am not to worried - i.e. Chinese cells being manufactuered for over 25 years and the original Edison cells being manufactured for over 84 years with no "horror tales" of carbonate issues that I have yet to uncover since I have been educating myself about the nickel iron battery and have had personal experience with both the new and old cells.

Who knows how long Mike will keep posting his experiences with his nickel iron battery bank. As with anything people get "new", that "newness wears" off.

JD

JD, I have Your New Guarantee right NOW.

Your right about the PP cases in 2009. I got to thinking about that whole matter and I had questions answered earlier this evening.
Then took a nice nap.
I know a fellow that Tracks ANY Internet accounts of Any year involving the accounts of NiFe batteries.
He sent me a condensation of that WILD 2009 incident which I have tried to keep clean here since it opened up into such a he said, she said
carnage of Nasty accusations between the 2009 NiFe Man, You (John D'Angelo at BeUtilityFree, Inc.) and Brandon Williams who claimed to be your Sales manager at the time. Now he is at IronEdison Battery Company.

The old King and the new Jumping Jack Flash of Chinese NiFe Batteries in America along with 2009 NiFe Man doing Serious Battle
in RipOff Reports.

The Changhong Instruction Manual that I know of (at that time) listed ALL (100%) PP Cases for the TN Series.

There was NO TN500 in that manual (skipped from 400 to 600)
but the TN400 matched up with the 42 pound Cell weight perfectly that the 2009 NiFe Man cried about from Coast to Coast and into Key Largo
(PLUS CHINA) since he had paid another $4000 (List price) for the TN500 Series but swears he didn't get his proper booty.

Other Changhong Documents will List Cell Weight as (filled kg) along with Electrolyte Volume in Liters BUT we do have the empty weights
in the Official Operators Manual (the devils).

The Reservoir Size can change GREATLY from one model to the next (sometimes Out of Proportion) and this fact will enter into a persons
Electrolyte Management Strategy when Mike gets around to it since not a single Swinging D in History has supplied the data needed
to make such decisions yet.

I asked my main man (retired now) to run a scan on the '2009 NiFe Man' file. I figured you (J D) might catch the lack of a proper explanation
of what was said and then force me into a detailed explanation on the plastic cases.
So I was waiting on you and ready for Freddy

It seems the Chinese may have Saved Weight on the Plastic Cases BEFORE this latest drive into the clear MBS Plastic
(polymethacrylate butadiene stryrene) which you claim, in writing, is not as strong as the older PP (polypropylene) cases. (the devils)

The 2009 NiFe Man in his Own Exact words. What heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee was Talkin about.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 14, 2009

More on the Chinese NiFe saga. Ever tried to deal with the BBB when you've been screwed, glued and tattooed? Now we have the DMA
(direct marketing Association). They slap the BBB logo on their complaint form but the BBB won't accept the DMA form. WTF?
So the battery company guy says,

"The reason the NiFe cells don't weigh what they should is that the cases used to be acrylic and now they are polycarbonate."
"We sent you the right battery it just weighs 42 pounds empty versus the 49 pounds on our published specifications;
weight of a cell isn't important and you should be happy your shipping charges are lower".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He may have had a 'Lost' Changhong Document with that TN500 info. All the main man has for me is the Manual with the 42 pounds
Dry weight info and another Document (around that time ?) on the TNG Series, the TNZ Series and the TN Series with no actual printed date.
They used Filled Cell weights in that one.

The TN800 held about 4 times as much go-go juice as the TN400 back then.
With the new NF-S series that Reservoir Gulf has been narrowed to 5.9 Liters (400) versus 17.2 Liters (800)
which is a tad less than 3 to 1 now.

The ability to dissipate Heat from the Electrolyte in Volume AND Surface Area is what BB is talkinnnnnnnnnnnnnn about.
Salespeople don't notice such things. BB do.


Thanks, BB

[Mike90250]

.....

There have been one or two cells that go negative when they are deep cycled (below 350 Ah or so) so we suspect it may be time to change electrolyte again. Most of the cells are in good shape, it is just the one or two cells that seem to be weak. If the reader knows anything about cells put in series once a cells goes bad or has lower capacity than the rest of the cells in series that one cells can drag down the whole battery bank. So it is important to test INDIVIDUAL cells in ANY battery bank that has a series connection. We advise our customers to label each cell and keep a history of the cells and test them at least once a year and especially if you seem to have a lower battery capacity than before.....

Cells that go negative would indicate some sort of damage, or manufacturing mishap. I'd expect to see the cells of a lot to be fairly close -+ 5% in all the cells, so I'd not expect any reversals to happen till +- 25Ah of the 500Ah mark.

Regarding carbonation, series cells in the same room, should experience the same conditions, and if something poisoned one, I'd expect the same to happen to the others. No reason for one out of 40 to get poisoned.

So, when you say to test individual cells, are you meaning a voltage test, or a carbonation test? And is there any DIY carbonation tests, or will samples have to be sent to a lab?

And after investing in the batteries, I will surely be sharing my results.

JD, I'm ready to hang the Carbonate problem up for a while and move on but always remember what I said.
What I say can be backed up in writing. In all fairness before saying that I go on and on about next to nothing let's see you put
Your NEW Guarantee as of August 1st up for the gang.

The one you sent me and I proofed it for you.

People will be able to see who is also $ worried $ about the carbonate problem - real quick like.

That 2009 NiFe Man who went through all the changes over the (40) 500 Amp Hour Cells said that he spoke with a few NiFe Battery
manufacturer's overseas including Changhong. This was during his Internet rampage.
He claimed that the Pro's told him the new Lighter, Thinner, more Fragile clear plastic cases brought the Cell weight down.

Old BB figures this tidbit along with an understanding of Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide and other gas transmissibility is probably just another

New Factor to the New Chinese Perfect Storm of Carbonate Problems. BB has foretold you may become an innocent victim of that storm.

As with other fellows we heard about his NiFe Cells coming. Then you may hear about the trials and tribulations connected to the
delivery problems and questions as to who has the Lithium Hydroxide for sale and what have you.
Then they normally drop the NiFe subject and disappear or just clam-up.

New Thread.


BB

Good, lets put the Carbonate issue this to rest for now, but I doubt you can. Once you come up with some ACTUAL facts of carbonate problems in electrolyte then post them, but until then don't get people all riled up with what ever the Chinese may say in some of their manuals. As I have pointed out, and you don't seem to acknowledge, is that actual field experience does not seem to match what they say. One thing you have not pointed out is that when the cell electrolyte reaches 50/g/liter then the electrolyte should be changed. The only way I know you can only find that out through titration.

The new warranty will be updated in the V 1.7 manual due to be completed early next week.

I guess you did not read my post very well, I said that the guy in 2009 receievd PP cases and NOT the clear plastic cases. The issue was not the material but the PHYSICAL case size. I hope you get it this time! How do you know who he spoke with?

You may be right about "being an inocent victim of that storm" but I have pointed out why I am not to worried - i.e. Chinese cells being manufactuered for over 25 years and the original Edison cells being manufactured for over 84 years with no "horror tales" of carbonate issues that I have yet to uncover since I have been educating myself about the nickel iron battery and have had personal experience with both the new and old cells.

Who knows how long Mike will keep posting his experiences with his nickel iron battery bank. As with anything people get "new", that "newness wears" off.

JD

[Sundetective]

Hey BB and Mike

We have a set of 500 Ah nickel iron cells that where manufactured by WUZHOU battery company which where purchased in 1996. We have had one electrolyte change in 2001 and we are trying to get electrolyte samples so we can test the existing cells.

There have been one or two cells that go negative when they are deep cycled (below 350 Ah or so) so we suspect it may be time to change electrolyte again. Most of the cells are in good shape, it is just the one or two cells that seem to be weak. If the reader knows anything about cells put in series once a cells goes bad or has lower capacity than the rest of the cells in series that one cells can drag down the whole battery bank. So it is important to test INDIVIDUAL cells in ANY battery bank that has a series connection. We advise our customers to label each cell and keep a history of the cells and test them at least once a year and especially if you seem to have a lower battery capacity than before.

We are about to set up a 200 AH battery set of cells made from Changchong battery company (who makes our current cells) at our office and start keeping track of the carbonate build up over time. We will also be monitoring the battery bank as far as AH consumed over time as well as AH put into the battery bank over time. Since we will have a 24 V system we can test different number of cells using different methods to keep the air our of the cells.

We feel confident that the carbonate built up is not going to be a long term problem, but even if you have to change electrolyte out once ever 10 years that sure beats buying a battery set every 10 years! Who knows what any metal will cost 10 years form now? I sure do not!

We will also be contacting our current customer and have them send in samples that we can test for them free of charge. We want to put this issue "to rest" and not be rattled by people who come up with all sorts of theories about this issue. History seems to prove out that the carbonate issue is not as big issue as some seem to believe both in the original nickel iron cells made by Thomas A Edison and as with the Wuzhou cells as well. Changchong cells are still out on trail, but they seem to be holding their own. We will publish the information to the public as well.


JD
BeutilityFree, Inc

JD, I'm ready to hang the Carbonate problem up for a while and move on but always remember what I said.
What I say can be backed up in writing. In all fairness before saying that I go on and on about next to nothing let's see you put
Your NEW Guarantee as of August 1st up for the gang.

The one you sent me and I proofed it for you.

People will be able to see who is also $ worried $ about the carbonate problem - real quick like.

That 2009 NiFe Man who went through all the changes over the (40) 500 Amp Hour Cells said that he spoke with a few NiFe Battery
manufacturer's overseas including Changhong. This was during his Internet rampage.
He claimed that the Pro's told him the new Lighter, Thinner, more Fragile clear plastic cases brought the Cell weight down.

Old BB figures this tidbit along with an understanding of Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide and other gas transmissibility is probably just another

New Factor to the New Chinese Perfect Storm of Carbonate Problems. BB has foretold you may become an innocent victim of that storm.

As with other fellows we heard about his NiFe Cells coming. Then you may hear about the trials and tribulations connected to the
delivery problems and questions as to who has the Lithium Hydroxide for sale and what have you.
Then they normally drop the NiFe subject and disappear or just clam-up.

In the case of the 2009 guy who lived off grid for decades and was deeply involved with Solar, Wind Turbines, Wind Mill Water Pumps,
off grid Heating Systems, Power Storage, etc., etc. he did leave us with

The Last List of 13 Nickel Iron Battery Questions.

New Thread.


BB

carbonate issue

Hey BB and Mike

We have a set of 500 Ah nickel iron cells that where manufactured by WUZHOU battery company which where purchased in 1996. We have had one electrolyte change in 2001 and we are trying to get electrolyte samples so we can test the existing cells.

There have been one or two cells that go negative when they are deep cycled (below 350 Ah or so) so we suspect it may be time to change electrolyte again. Most of the cells are in good shape, it is just the one or two cells that seem to be weak. If the reader knows anything about cells put in series once a cells goes bad or has lower capacity than the rest of the cells in series that one cells can drag down the whole battery bank. So it is important to test INDIVIDUAL cells in ANY battery bank that has a series connection. We advise our customers to label each cell and keep a history of the cells and test them at least once a year and especially if you seem to have a lower battery capacity than before.

We are about to set up a 200 AH battery set of cells made from Changchong battery company (who makes our current cells) at our office and start keeping track of the carbonate build up over time. We will also be monitoring the battery bank as far as AH consumed over time as well as AH put into the battery bank over time. Since we will have a 24 V system we can test different number of cells using different methods to keep the air our of the cells.

We feel confident that the carbonate built up is not going to be a long term problem, but even if you have to change electrolyte out once ever 10 years that sure beats buying a battery set every 10 years! Who knows what any metal will cost 10 years form now? I sure do not!

We will also be contacting our current customer and have them send in samples that we can test for them free of charge. We want to put this issue "to rest" and not be rattled by people who come up with all sorts of theories about this issue. History seems to prove out that the carbonate issue is not as big issue as some seem to believe both in the original nickel iron cells made by Thomas A Edison and as with the Wuzhou cells as well. Changchong cells are still out on trail, but they seem to be holding their own. We will publish the information to the public as well.


JD
BeutilityFree, Inc

[Mike90250]

Egads ! I'd known of the Carbonate issue, but was thinking of a way to use nitrogen as a purge, or a piece of masking tape with a pinhole over the cap, to limit the air exchange. I'd thought of a float oil, but figured it'd make a mess as fluid levels flucutate, and it could coat the internal plates.

I will be on the low side of charging voltage, and expect to need generator run time to get full charge for the first couple cycles. Thus, I expected to stay in the higher efficency of the charging curve, and at low amps, keep temps low.

So, I'm still in the waiting mode, as the BUF's selected shipping warehouse screwed up and FedEx could not pick up when scheduled.

Now that I'm back after a futile week vacation, I found I missed another round of layoffs in my absense (I guess it's bad form for the employer to lay you off while you are on vacation) So, I now have to schedule another vacation, likley in November, to wire and commission my batteries, and the sun is so lame then, it will take a lot of genset runtime to charge these up.
At least the tire shop that fixed my flat, didnt charge me for the repair, because they felt bad, making me wait 2 hours for the repair.

JD, You know that I could easily quibble with you over your real new guarantee but I prefer to keep the NiFe subject moving along.
Why did you change your Electrolyte at the 5 year mark?

Obviously ebay has plenty of old Edison Battery Oil bottles for sale.
Did Edison ever write about using any oil?
I'm wondering if the Oil should be vacuumed out before tipping the Cells. I have a 12 Volt pump that should do it nicely.

I feel that in all fairness you should state that you have suspended ALL Oil Sales since you can't get the Special Chevron Oil
any longer. TODAY I would have to Live on Promises.

As you know I have reason to believe this Carbonate Infestation problem has just started getting smokin since Changhong
jacked up their Charging Voltage to try and please the Solar market with the Blivet Charging.
It's a part of my NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity.

Like I have told you the Professional Carbon Dioxide Absorbents (whether still Powder in Chinese bags sitting around or mixed in water)

KOH and the ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbent (of Apollo 13 Fame) Lithium Hydroxide need to be considered as CO2 sources from WITHIN.

Then like Health Experts will point out - Why does so much Distilled Water test Acidic?

Why because it absorbed yet more Carbon Dioxide and may become Yet Another CO2 SOURCE from WITHIN.

You may HAVE DA FOX LOCKED UP IN THE CHICKEN COOP, JD.

Your Oil just make it more Comfy. The Air means nothing to it.

IT CAN MAKE PLENTY OF IT'S OWN AIR (hydrogen and oxygen) and Terminate Your Game.

Like gasoline when it burns and gains so much weight I have read where the Carbonate process can multiply it's weight
by around 7 times when exposed to enough Oxygen along with the dreaded CO2.
The LiOH Alone is enough to DO YOU.

Changhong may have started a Perfect Storm by using some cheap, sloppy handled chemicals in cheap bags.
Then we know they increased one of the WORLD'S ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbents LiOH by A WHOPPING 400%
in the Electrolyte Formula.

THEN they turn the NiFe Cells into OXYGEN GENERATORS with what may turn out to be very Stupid CHARGING advice
(which they are NOT known for in the past).
Did Greed get the best of them?

As part of those Contradictions that I speak of if you go to the Changhong Website and pull up their:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'. <snip>

1.6.9 Water Consumption different ranges of

and Gas Evolution

Surplus charge or overcharge will break down the water of the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen , so pure distilled water should

be added to compensate for water loss. In theory , the quantity of water consumed can be calculated according to the Faradic equation

that each Ah of overcharge breaks down 0.0366CC of water. However , due to the combination separator used in Changhong NF-S series

NiFe cell， the water usage will be considerably less than this. The following graph gives typical water consumption values over different ranges

of voltages and various temperatures. The battery gives off no gas during discharge. The electrolysis of will break down the water of 1CC water

generates 2000CC of mixture gas in the proportion of the electrolyte into oxygen and 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you should run the Numbers for just one Liter of Water JD.

Keep in mind they STOP the CHART at 1.60V / cell and at 30 degrees Celsius (the devils).

Yet they recommend HIGHER Charging Voltage, in writing as do some like YOU and Brandon at Iron Edison in America (the devils).

Will the Electrolyte Temperature really STAY at 86 degrees Fahrenheit, OR LESS, in writing (the devils).

YOU may be becoming an Innocent Victim in this impending Carbonate Crisis.


BB

BB,

We changed the electrolyte because the customer said the cells where losing battery capacity. Plain and simple. WE never tested the carbonate content. The manual said to change the electrolyte the first few hundred cycles, but it certainly appears that the manual was wrong. The battery bank was used in an off grid cabin with the battery bank charged daily.Now the cells have gone more than 5 years without an electrolyte change and we plan to teat the CO2 concentrate shortly to see where things are at. It certainly worked because ewe retested the battery bank and did achieve 100% capacity in a controlled test using an AH meter.

I have read very little in regards to using oil in the Edison cells, but obviously he used it because he sold quite a lot of the stiff in little glass bottles and I am sure larger capacities as well. Oil acts a a BARRIER to the air and helps RETARD the CO build up in the cells. It does not stop it completely!

Yes for some reason I see both empty bottles of oil and full bottles of oil on eBay. I even bought a small glass bottle that has never been opened. UtilityOill 22 is no longer made buy Chevron, however the NiCd people still sell oil and they have been using oil for about as long as I suppose Edison has. Once we find out their source for oil (it may be the same as the oil we have in stock now) we will most likely allow oil to be used on cell tops again. We want to air on the side of caution when you change anything that you put in a cell that last up to 40 years of service or longer, don't you think that is wise? Our greatest fear is that the oil chosen would pollute the electrolyte.

We spoke on the phone to one gentleman who went and bought some mineral oil and it reacted with his electrolyte in his NiFE cells and he ended up having a real mess on his hands. We have tested our oil and so far their has been no problem with the Utility22 oil replacement, but we do feel that if you can have a better system why not do that then mess with sucking oil from the tops of cells?? Bottom line, not all mineral oils are the same!

"YOU may be becoming an Innocent Victim in this impending Carbonate Crisis."

I doubt it from my personal experience with the NiFE ca=ells over a 40 year period. Edison sold his NiFE cells for well over 70 some years before EXide bought the company out. You can't sell something for that length of time and be in a constant "carbonate crisis" ,if you where you could not be in business that long BB.

I will never forget the response of a Edison dealer in Akron, OH. I asked him "Why don't they make Edison cells anymore? He said " they where to good and lasted to long". True and to the point. The lead acid battery world does NOT WANT a battery that will last as long as a NiFE will last. Plain and simple.

I personally believe you are making a mountain out of a molehill BB. Changchong and the their predecessor has been making NiFe cells for some 25 years or longer and you can't be making cells for that long and have some terrible issue with carbonate build up in the cells. FROM OUR EXPERIENCE, experience will trump theory any day. You seem to ramble on and on and on about the carbonate issue and I have pointed out repeatedly that yes, it is something to be aware of when one buys a NiFE battery bank but that it seems to be something that is not a MAJOR issue FROM OUR field experience. Apparently they use hundreds of thousands of them on Chinas railroads (typical orders at a time are 38,000-75,000 an order from their government) I am still a little puzzled as to why they say what they say about electrolyte changes in their manuals.

Now that we are importing more of their cells then ever before only time will tell when carbonate build up occurs and how often. having been around these cells for over 40 years I am confident that the CO problem is not as big of an issues as you seem to believe. Like I have said before to you since we have been importing the cells direct from China since 1995 we have had virtually no people coming back to us for electrolyte changes, so if our customers are changing out electrolyte they are not getting the materials from us....! Perhaps we should contact all our NiFE customers and ask if they have ever had to do an electrolyte change and if so when did they do it. I suspect that the vast majority of people who have bought our NiFE batteries bank use them on a daily basis.

JD
BeUtilityFree, Inc

[Sundetective]

BB,

Few things I want to address here:

The 500 Ah cells where made by WUZHOU, Changhong's predecessor.

1. What does it cost for a yearly carbonate test?

We can supply the equipment for doing your own testing (about $175) or we can send you our kit and you can send the kit back with sample electrolyte and we can test it. The cost starts at $20 for one test and goes down from there.

2. BUF warranty reads in section 8 "If battery (read cell) electrolyte becomes contaminated with (should read within) the first 10 years then the owner should replace the fluid and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period. If the battery (cell(s)) is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim then the claim will not be honored. It is the client's responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content."

Simply put if someone claims the cells do not work after 10 years and they send us some sample cells and we find it is carbonate polluted the warranty will not be honored. Since each battery bank is used under different conditions it is the owner responsibility to check carbonate build up in their cells. Normally the general rule is that when the battery bank or cell looses noticeable ah capacity it is time to change electrolyte. WE feel that if you own a NiFE battery bank you need to monitor its carbonate concentrate as a normal maintenance operation. For us a once a year test or every 2 years is well worth it but if just do nothing until your battery capacity starts falling that is ok too. But I think it is much wiser to know where you are at instead of having a "surprise".

3. You are correct. When the Chinese gov wants 38,000 cells all production stops and the 38,000 production starts. This has happened to us a few over the years causing the delivery time to go beyond our normal 60-90 days time frame.

5, Thomas Edison used float oil on his cells. I think it makes sense, but if you don't have to deal with it all the better. As I said before we have in the works a system that should not let any air into the cells. It has been tested on a Eagle Pitcher battery bank for 10 years and their was never a need for an electrolyte change during that 10 years as I understand it.. The owner of the system passed away recently and sent us a sample and said to us fell free to duplicate it.

One last note, Chnagchong is currently building a NEW factory that will just make NiFE cells and no other type.

JD

JD, You know that I could easily quibble with you over your real new guarantee but I prefer to keep the NiFe subject moving along.
Why did you change your Electrolyte at the 5 year mark?

Obviously ebay has plenty of old Edison Battery Oil bottles for sale.
Did Edison ever write about using any oil?
I'm wondering if the Oil should be vacuumed out before tipping the Cells. I have a 12 Volt pump that should do it nicely.

I feel that in all fairness you should state that you have suspended ALL Oil Sales since you can't get the Special Chevron Oil
any longer. TODAY I would have to Live on Promises.

As you know I have reason to believe this Carbonate Infestation problem has just started getting smokin since Changhong
jacked up their Charging Voltage to try and please the Solar market with the Blivet Charging.
It's a part of my NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity.

Like I have told you the Professional Carbon Dioxide Absorbents (whether still Powder in Chinese bags sitting around or mixed in water)

KOH and the ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbent (of Apollo 13 Fame) Lithium Hydroxide need to be considered as CO2 sources from WITHIN.

Then like Health Experts will point out - Why does so much Distilled Water test Acidic?

Why because it absorbed yet more Carbon Dioxide and may become Yet Another CO2 SOURCE from WITHIN.

You may HAVE DA FOX LOCKED UP IN THE CHICKEN COOP, JD.

Your Oil just make it more Comfy. The Air means nothing to it.

IT CAN MAKE PLENTY OF IT'S OWN AIR (hydrogen and oxygen) and Terminate Your Game.

Like gasoline when it burns and gains so much weight I have read where the Carbonate process can multiply it's weight
by around 7 times when exposed to enough Oxygen along with the dreaded CO2.
The LiOH Alone is enough to DO YOU.

Changhong may have started a Perfect Storm by using some cheap, sloppy handled chemicals in cheap bags.
Then we know they increased one of the WORLD'S ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbents LiOH by A WHOPPING 400%
in the Electrolyte Formula.

THEN they turn the NiFe Cells into OXYGEN GENERATORS with what may turn out to be very Stupid CHARGING advice
(which they are NOT known for in the past).
Did Greed get the best of them?

As part of those Contradictions that I speak of if you go to the Changhong Website and pull up their:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'. <snip>

1.6.9 Water Consumption different ranges of

and Gas Evolution

Surplus charge or overcharge will break down the water of the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen , so pure distilled water should

be added to compensate for water loss. In theory , the quantity of water consumed can be calculated according to the Faradic equation

that each Ah of overcharge breaks down 0.0366CC of water. However , due to the combination separator used in Changhong NF-S series

NiFe cell， the water usage will be considerably less than this. The following graph gives typical water consumption values over different ranges

of voltages and various temperatures. The battery gives off no gas during discharge. The electrolysis of will break down the water of 1CC water

generates 2000CC of mixture gas in the proportion of the electrolyte into oxygen and 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you should run the Numbers for just one Liter of Water JD.

Keep in mind they STOP the CHART at 1.60V / cell and at 30 degrees Celsius (the devils).

Yet they recommend HIGHER Charging Voltage, in writing as do some like YOU and Brandon at Iron Edison in America (the devils).

Will the Electrolyte Temperature really STAY at 86 degrees Fahrenheit, OR LESS, in writing (the devils).

YOU may be becoming an Innocent Victim in this impending Carbonate Crisis.


BB

JD,

The 500 Amp Hour Cells you installed in 1996. Who made them?

How much does it cost for the YEARLY Carbonate Test per Cell which BUF demands and requires -

or the Battery Guarantee becomes VOID.

I'm sorry to hear that Changhong isn't staying on top of it and may have lost control of their faculties.
With the Chinese Government tying them up at 38,000 (or so) battery orders at a clip I would hate to hear that someone got
stood up in front of a wall and shot for lying to everybody.
Never did hear them talk of Mineral OIL or ANY other Float Oil for instance.
They are very curious, do a lot of testing but are very cautious with their Lips.


BB

BB,

Few things I want to address here:

The 500 Ah cells where made by WUZHOU, Changhong's predecessor.

1. What does it cost for a yearly carbonate test?

We can supply the equipment for doing your own testing (about $175) or we can send you our kit and you can send the kit back with sample electrolyte and we can test it. The cost starts at $20 for one test and goes down from there.

2. BUF warranty reads in section 8 "If battery (read cell) electrolyte becomes contaminated with (should read within) the first 10 years then the owner should replace the fluid and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period. If the battery (cell(s)) is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim then the claim will not be honored. It is the client's responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content."

Simply put if someone claims the cells do not work after 10 years and they send us some sample cells and we find it is carbonate polluted the warranty will not be honored. Since each battery bank is used under different conditions it is the owner responsibility to check carbonate build up in their cells. Normally the general rule is that when the battery bank or cell looses noticeable ah capacity it is time to change electrolyte. WE feel that if you own a NiFE battery bank you need to monitor its carbonate concentrate as a normal maintenance operation. For us a once a year test or every 2 years is well worth it but if just do nothing until your battery capacity starts falling that is ok too. But I think it is much wiser to know where you are at instead of having a "surprise".

3. You are correct. When the Chinese gov wants 38,000 cells all production stops and the 38,000 production starts. This has happened to us a few over the years causing the delivery time to go beyond our normal 60-90 days time frame.

5, Thomas Edison used float oil on his cells. I think it makes sense, but if you don't have to deal with it all the better. As I said before we have in the works a system that should not let any air into the cells. It has been tested on a Eagle Pitcher battery bank for 10 years and their was never a need for an electrolyte change during that 10 years as I understand it.. The owner of the system passed away recently and sent us a sample and said to us fell free to duplicate it.

One last note, Chnagchong is currently building a NEW factory that will just make NiFE cells and no other type.

JD

[Sundetective]

I am reading a lot in this thread about huge efforts to cycle battery banks of this size. Is there a charger like this that will do it? (This one does mention being compatible with lead-acid):

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1574_116/products_id/187710/n/ProTek-R-C-Prodigy-610-DUO-LiPo-LiFe-NiMH-DC-Battery-Charger-6S-10A-200W-x-2

I'm just thinking of initially cycling the batteries. Not a charge controller. Although surely an A123 or LiFe charge controller is not that far off... This thread has piqued my interest in the NiFe cells mentioned, but the costs are a little up there.

Or why not hook up a few 1000W resistors and let the LVC kick in? Just curious if there was a specific reason to drain them manually, like if the batteries have memory problems, etc.

LiquidDog,

Who started the rumor that you have to cycle and start to wear your NiFe batteries out for free after the first good long charge.
I don't see where the builders ever said to. ONLY a Second Initial Charge IF the Cells are out of balance is what they have said.

Unfortunately Changhong got into a predicament with the 2010 Solar Brochure where they were trying to get into a market
where they were trying to Sell 8 hours worth of charge in a 4 hour Solar time slot.

They put that Solar Brochure on their website so a lot of people saw it. The guys selling NiFe in America stated to me they hadn't seen
any previous Changhong Documents before I told one of them in May or June.
However the document he published was a poor choice for charging instructions and says very little.

It depends on what mood they are in as far as how much detail they go into.

With different languages, etc. it can become a real mess unless you can reference several sets of their instructions and put it all in context.
Let it fall into place.
Just trying to explain it sounds a little confusing here but I started the post with the bottom line since after a lot of work they
are now clear as a bell to me. I will get a post on NiFe charging put together.

it's no wonder this new Changhong Sales Angle may have triggered an electrolyte failure epidemic.
It contradicts what they were saying for years about sensible charging methods.
This is 2011 and the Dollar Talks Louder than any of us.

We will call it:

THE 2010 BLIVET CHARGING OF CHANGHONG NIFE BATTERIES.

TRYING TO PUT 8 POUNDS OF CHARGE IN A 4 HOUR BAG.


Blivet

[allegedly from a World War II military term meaning

[liquidDog]

I am reading a lot in this thread about huge efforts to cycle battery banks of this size. Is there a charger like this that will do it? (This one does mention being compatible with lead-acid):

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1574_116/products_id/187710/n/ProTek-R-C-Prodigy-610-DUO-LiPo-LiFe-NiMH-DC-Battery-Charger-6S-10A-200W-x-2

I'm just thinking of initially cycling the batteries. Not a charge controller. Although surely an A123 or LiFe charge controller is not that far off... This thread has piqued my interest in the NiFe cells mentioned, but the costs are a little up there.

Or why not hook up a few 1000W resistors and let the LVC kick in? Just curious if there was a specific reason to drain them manually, like if the batteries have memory problems, etc.

[Sundetective]

At least you are honest about the short comings and pitfalls of NiFe. There is a reason Edison let the patent expire and all US manufactures quit making them back in the 70's.

Like the 100 years before they have a niche market in mining and rail road sectors, but I doubt they gain any real traction in the RE markets.

It would be nice to have the Electrolyte Thermometer readings while the NiFe Cells charge at different voltages.
This info will be needed in managing the electrolyte to hopefully prolong replacement in a big way.

Also to know how great the difference in Charging Efficiency is between say 60 to 80% State of Charge versus 80 to 100% SOC.

Unlike Lead Acid the NiFe Cells don't get hurt and Sulfate by avoiding that last 20% or so of charge.

Changhong and others have said if they start to lose capacity over time because of constant undercharging you can just throw
a Boost to the badhammers every once in a while.
Some battery support equipment problems may have fairly simple solutions with this method.

Some fellows selling the Cells may be sending out some real poor Charging advice.
Steven at ZappWorks may be the guy that has a more 'enlightened' understanding of the Charging issue.
It probably goes even deeper than what he has realized. I'm getting ahead of myself because the Charging is definitely a separate post.

There seems to be some overwhelming strengths to NiFe Cells as well as what has been hyped, twisted and amplified.
Just haven't gotten to the good parts that should be so wonderful yet. Had to start somewhere.

I'm hoping people who own the NiFe Cells will do a little testing because until I get a few simple pieces of info that SHOULD already
be available to the public I'm very interested but not buying.

Someone that deals with Changhong should be asking Changhong.
They didn't answer a regular email I sent and I'm not going through that Website of theirs because my computer doesn't like what it sees
just from visiting ANY Battery Company website in China.
For some reason they seem to feel compelled to know your business.

Check this old little study out on Charging Efficiency with Lead Acid. it's a goodie.

http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/batpapsteve.pdf

What would the overall efficiency have been if you could cut that last 20% or so out??

The 2 battery technologies seem to have a Lot in common along with the Key differences.

This spare the last 20% piece may be a huge key because I don't buy that
Run Them Hard and Beat Them Up routine that is being run by so many.

Changhong has done studies and published data for years that makes an absolute mockery of such statements.
You grab your 20 - 30% the same as you do with LA Batteries
IF you really want some serious years out of them.

It's WHICH 20 - 30% slice you take that I'mmmm talkin about

If John or Brandon do not like something please feel free to 'Speak into the Mike'.



BB

[Sunking]

Hi Sunking,

Believe it or not I am a supporter of NiFe. Just want to get past the wives tales and half truths so I can set-up a system
that will stand for my Grandkids even if occasionally abused over time.

At least you are honest about the short comings and pitfalls of NiFe. There is a reason Edison let the patent expire and all US manufactures quit making them back in the 70's.

Like the 100 years before they have a niche market in mining and rail road sectors, but I doubt they gain any real traction in the RE markets.

[Sundetective]

I hear you, but the supporters do not want to hear it. They also do not want to hear it will take another 20% panel wattage, and that their inverters and charge controllers are not likely compatible.

Hi Sunking,

Believe it or not I am a supporter of NiFe. Just want to get past the wives tales and half truths so I can set-up a system
that will stand for my Grandkids even if occasionally abused over time.

Next I would like to talk about Life Cycles and Depth of Discharge.
What Changhong has said, in writing, over the years about it based on their extensive testing over the years.
What Uncle Harry claimed back in 1939 with not an ounce of documentation or research notes doesn't cut it for me.

The intriguing part of this interest has been the conflicts involved with the NiFe subject and the lack of a SIMPLE, sane level
of Tests and Notes done by NiFe customers over the years.

Not only do people and Companies change their tune from Document to Document
but they can sometimes change their tune and have conflicts With THEMSELVES within the same Document.
It's too much. It's fun and beautiful in a twisted way

In full disclosure I'm kind of like Fox News and CNN rolled into one on this NiFe deal.
I will say that anything I say or hint at IS ALWAYS backed up in writing though it may seem that I'm just having fun
and being mouthy.

As an example I Only communicate by email with people like JD at BeUtilityFree, BW at IronEdison, SE at ZappWorks
and so on.

Sure they will insist I call them on the phone but I do not. I prefer that everything is in writing.
So they may get angry and stop writing to me. Then a couple of weeks later or a month later from out of the blue I hear from them again.

There have been dozens of emails from JD at BeUtilityFree There have been dozens of emails from BW at IronEdison and so forth.
I do not share their email unless it is Company Doctrine that affects everyone's pocket.

I think of myself as an old, well used funnel that is real comfortable to work with.
A place for the combined wisdom in NiFe to get poured and appreciated.

A place for The NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity to have been born


BB

[Sunking]

You see JD it is a very legitimate concern when the cost of Electrolyte for the 800 Series could begin to approach
the cost of a something like an equal amount of Kilowatt Hours in a 5000 Series Set of Rolls Surrette Batteries.
That's what I'mmmmm talking about. Reality strikes deep on this deal !!

I hear you, but the supporters do not want to hear it. They also do not want to hear it will take another 20% panel wattage, and that their inverters and charge controllers are not likely compatible.