No prove lithium 1000 cycles

[GeorgeF]

.....
... Stick with your Pb batteries.
If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.

Stick with your PB.
Sure I will stick with my cheap PB till you or others can convince me to switch to LFP. A simple solar user like me do not need a lot of continuous power.

[Ampster]

As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.........

But every one is different with different needs

I agree. With the high rates and shifted time periods in California, it is about the numbers and convenience.

[SunEagle]

As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.

If you want relative autonomy during an outage and can afford a battery system spend the dollars...

If you are trying to optimize dollars, stick with simple Solar on grid tied string inverter.

But every one is different with different needs

I agree which is why I have a 12kw generator that provides a lot of power should the grid go down. But if batteries work for you and you don't mind the cost then go for it.

[scrambler]

As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.

If you want relative autonomy during an outage and can afford a battery system spend the dollars...

If you are trying to optimize dollars, stick with simple Solar on grid tied string inverter.

But every one is different with different needs

[SunEagle]

Other than the hobbyists you mentioned earlier I do not see many DIYers using LOC18650. Its irrelevant to compare them to all the other choices. Stick with your Pb batteries.
If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.

No question that Li chemistry batteries can deliver much more power then other chemistry types based on their Ah rating.

But in the end who is paying for that battery? A homeowner performing a DIY / Contractor install or a homeowner paying a POCO through an increase in power costs for all of that Utility GW storage?

All I say is for someone to run the numbers before they commit to a battery back up system.

[Ampster]

1000 cycles @ end of voltage, 500 for LCO18650. .........

Other than the hobbyists you mentioned earlier I do not see many DIYers using LOC18650. Its irrelevant to compare them to all the other choices. Stick with your Pb batteries.
If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.

[scrambler]

And so it is only a matter of price vs function

[GeorgeF]

And FYI, People have been driving electric cars based on lithium batteries for almost 10 years, and at 365 days a year, that is 3650 cycles....

So saying there is no proof these lithium batteries can last 1000 cycle seems pretty baseless. That is only 3 years of daily use, and by now I am pretty sure there even are solar installations based on lithium batteries that have lasted way more than 3 years...

As mentioned here, I don't think the argument is whether they can last that long, but whether their benefits justify the price for your specific usage scenario and preference.

1000 cycles @ end of voltage, 500 for LCO18650. Ofcourse you can get more cycles when you shallow cycle after charging < 100% SoC. Same with lead acid after FSOC

[scrambler]

And FYI, People have been driving electric cars based on lithium batteries for almost 10 years, and at 365 days a year, that is 3650 cycles....

So saying there is no proof these lithium batteries can last 1000 cycle seems pretty baseless. That is only 3 years of daily use, and by now I am pretty sure there even are solar installations based on lithium batteries that have lasted way more than 3 years...

As mentioned here, I don't think the argument is whether they can last that long, but whether their benefits justify the price for your specific usage scenario and preference.

[Ampster]

Not all 18650 are the same. That Panasonic NCR18650B is just one example..Yes there is more hype with everything. Stick with what you are comfortable with.
Like PNjunction i have been using various Lithium batteries for the past 10 years. My preference is for LFP also known as LiFePO4. The guy that purchased my converted VW with Winston LFP batteries that I installed 10 yrars ago says they still work. He does not drive the car every day so it is anybody's guess how may cycles they have. He does not have to trickle charge them and he can leave them at 75 % for months.

[GeorgeF]

C'mon PNjuntion, image_14429.png also LCO 18650 with 500 cycles to the end of voltage according to Panasonic official specs hehe. See attachment.

I am trying to understand DIY guys who solder packs/wall themselves @ home with used laptop 18650 cells. Till now, as an amateur myself, I still do not understand. As an experiment I bought a small portable chicom prefabricated 2s2p and 3s3p pack, which I can put in the 18650 ex-laptop cells without soldering, pict 2. I just forget about the quality & external resistances etc... and just cycle the used batteries to power a 5v led tube @ my "OUTSIDE" terrace for few hours. Works fine till now and im not dreaming that those used batteries will last long.

Ofcourse for my critical loads I only use lead acid. My choice.

There are DIY persons in the country where im living right now, Indonesia, claiming they can cycle used laptop batteries more than 4 years with their own DIY walls. Before readers think it is normal, it is not.

There is also a hype all over the internet about Lifepo4 and a lot of misinformation, especially if they are comparing LFP vs true deep cycle lead acid.

I've read some of your posts here, PNjunction, and I recommend DIY and LFP users & others to read his posts here. Excellent posts, my compliments.

[PNjunction]

I've easily gone past 1000 cycles. In fact, I didn't realize full potential because in real-world use for more than a decade, (not just doing repetetive charge/discharge in a lab), the batteries aged faster than I could use up the cycles!

Reminder - please specify LifeP04, and not just "lithium". Not all lithium is equal. Your cellphone battery is not LFP, and is rated for only 360 cycles.

Then again, I didn't murder the Lifepo4 batteries by trying to charge them in sub-freezing temps. Nor did I charge them in my hot-garage in the middle of summer. These things are bad. If you're uncomfortable, so are the batts!

The real issue is finding and buying from a reputable dealer/manufacturer. Still after a decade or more of using LFP. Unfortunately, many still get hoodwinked by poor materials.

[Ampster]

There is bias in everyones preference and there are many people out there who have a conflict. Stick with what you know and are comfortable with. There is no reason for you to change just because some one else has changed to Lithium.

[GeorgeF]

There is a someone who is active on internet (youtube) who promotes a (specific) lithium product.

He , also many others, compares like per attached screenprint. I myself am not selling batteries , i am just an amateur user, but it is obvious that many compares with "conflict of interest" , I think.

[Ampster]

Ampster,
if I need e.g. 3Kwh per day I can get it with lead acid and still (in 2021) much more cheaper than with lithium...........

Exactly. Why would you even want to try Lithium? As, I said, it all depends on where you are standing. My only point was that there are plenty of people and companies that have made a different decision, but that does not make yours a wrong decision.