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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    Other than the hobbyists you mentioned earlier I do not see many DIYers using LOC18650. Its irrelevant to compare them to all the other choices. Stick with your Pb batteries.
    If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.
    No question that Li chemistry batteries can deliver much more power then other chemistry types based on their Ah rating.

    But in the end who is paying for that battery? A homeowner performing a DIY / Contractor install or a homeowner paying a POCO through an increase in power costs for all of that Utility GW storage?

    All I say is for someone to run the numbers before they commit to a battery back up system.

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    • #17
      As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.

      If you want relative autonomy during an outage and can afford a battery system spend the dollars...

      If you are trying to optimize dollars, stick with simple Solar on grid tied string inverter.

      But every one is different with different needs

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      • #18
        Originally posted by scrambler View Post
        As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.

        If you want relative autonomy during an outage and can afford a battery system spend the dollars...

        If you are trying to optimize dollars, stick with simple Solar on grid tied string inverter.

        But every one is different with different needs
        I agree which is why I have a 12kw generator that provides a lot of power should the grid go down. But if batteries work for you and you don't mind the cost then go for it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by scrambler View Post
          As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.........

          But every one is different with different needs
          I agree. With the high rates and shifted time periods in California, it is about the numbers and convenience.
          9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ampster View Post
            .....
            ... Stick with your Pb batteries.
            If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.
            Stick with your PB.
            Sure I will stick with my cheap PB till you or others can convince me to switch to LFP. A simple solar user like me do not need a lot of continuous power.

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            • #21
              I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you to switch. From where you are standing Pb is your best choice. Other readers are free to roam about and make a different choice.
              9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

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              • #22
                Yup, stick with what you know. OR, better yet, add to your knowledge with hands-on, and not just discussion.

                I enjoy flooded FLA. I also enjoy AGM, especially pure-leads and get some heat for that. But I don't care. It's fun, and I love to hammer them properly with limited solar-insolation challenges. They are easy to undercharge, but *I* know how to maintain them properly. Sunking helped me out and it paid dividends.

                But would I power my house with Optima's? No.

                What has been preached here before is to start out with a "learner bank" before going big. It's easier and cheaper than before with LifeP04.

                Note that I said LifeP04, and NOT anything else like tesla batteries, computer batteries which are *different* types of li-ion. But that's me.

                To avoid a ready-fire-aim situation, and if you want to cheaply prove to *yourself* about LFP, even a simple dreaded cheap drop-in these days will let you play not only with cycle life, but all the other factors that you may find fun.

                There's a lot of junk out there, but instead of recommending one bang together a 4S / 12v learner bank like I did here years ago, or pop for a $1K BattleBorn, heck even this thing from Amazon has already replaced my pure-lead AGM's just for the fun factor alone:

                https://www.amazon.com/TalentCell-Re...9953682&sr=8-8

                I can hold this in the palm of my hand. The 48ah Optima Yellowtop that this compares to - can't do that! (Although these LFP's are NOT designed for starter use!)

                There are even cheaper examples like the MIADY LifeP04 batteries. Pretty much bottom of the barrel, but still good enough to let one learn even if they want to abuse it - within reason.

                So yeah, you don't need to hang LVD, HVD or anything on them. Taken care of in case you biff it.

                Speaking of not needing an LVD since it's already built in, here's what's really cool:

                With LFP learner bank like this, go ahead and attach a small inverter. Run it until the inverter itself hits it's own dead-man switch at typically 11.7v . That will kick off before the internal lvd in the battery does!

                Normally allowing a dead-man switch on an inverter to be your lvd on a regular basis is a big no-no with lead acid. But with LFP, where the voltage range is different, the typical 11.7v dead man switch on an inverter is not a huge worry now! It is actually usable, so one *could* set up a very simple cycling setup with a cheap LFP batt, and cheap inverter, and not worry so much about killing the battery.

                This will free you up to investigate the lack of sulfation worries, EQ, ability to use the *entire* capacity if you want, run up to about .5C charge, large discharge. Fully charge it or don't - up to you.

                I guess what I'm saying is that something like the above would be like what we would have suggested to a newcomer about going down the nearest store, picking up cheap golf-cart battery to learn on - before trying to design a whole-house system first.

                Instead of asking us, your questions will be answered by your own hands-on. While it may not make you switch, it *IS* fun to learn something new. And not that expensive if you consider it a learning instrument that goes beyond mere talk on my end.

                Sorry to ramble.
                Last edited by PNjunction; 05-02-2021, 07:55 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                  I've easily gone past 1000 cycles. In fact, I didn't realize full potential because in real-world use for more than a decade, (not just doing repetetive charge/discharge in a lab), the batteries aged faster than I could use up the cycles!

                  Reminder - please specify LifeP04, and not just "lithium". Not all lithium is equal. Your cellphone battery is not LFP, and is rated for only 360 cycles.
                  I usually average about 5 years with a cell phone. That's about when the battery becomes unusable. Roughly 1 cycle per day, probably between 50% and 90% DOD most days, then left on the charger all night. That's over 1800 cycles. I've done this multiple times.

                  I have a bunch of lithium power tool batteries dating back to early 2014. I don't know how many cycles they have had, but not thousands. The 7 year old batteries are still holding about 75% as much as newer batteries, I think they're dying of old age before I can wear them out.

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                  • #24
                    I think there may be some misinformation being used as marketing points with LFP batteries. Most marketing information will say something like >6000 cycles or >7000 cycles at 80% DOD. When in reality the spec often overlooked is the recommended discharge rate. LFP batteries subjected to high discharge rates have significantly decreased cycle times. Yes the maximum discharge rate is 1c however the recommended discharge rate is likely .3 or .2c at this discharge rate you will get greatly improved cycle life. It is far more important than the DOD in regards to longevity. Calculate you loads accurately and size the battery bank large enough to keep the discharge rate below .3c. Also define a cycle? Is it each time the battery crosses a certain DOD and rises above a predetermined percentage of charge? Is there a standard that all manufacturers use so the consumer can make informed decisions? Using the >?000 cycles to assess quality is like accepting the advertised 10 year warranty without reading the fine print.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bunker View Post
                      I think there may be some misinformation being used as marketing points with LFP batteries. .. ....... Is there a standard that all manufacturers use so the consumer can make informed decisions? Using the >?000 cycles to assess quality is like accepting the advertised 10 year warranty without reading the fine print.
                      No doubt there is some misinformation. There is no standard that I know of.. Since almost all LFP cells are made in China there is bound to be something lost in translation.
                      To me the decision was based on long term cost of ownership. I have a 42 kWh pack and probably never go above 0.1C and also use conservative charge parameters. I am in a high rate environment in California so using batteries allows me to leverage my solar. Not everyone will reach the same conclusion as I have because their use case and rate environment will be different than mine.
                      Last edited by Ampster; 11-18-2021, 09:57 PM.
                      9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

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                      • #26
                        Sounds like you have a found a great solution to the rolling blackouts! I am putting in 60 kWh because that gives me two days of autonomy before the back up generator kicks on. To me it’s all about being self sufficient. Actually the best case that I could make for traditional lead acid batteries is that they are unaffected by EMP from say a hypersonic missile? I just keep a few extra BMS’s on hand.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bunker View Post
                          Sounds like you have a found a great solution to the rolling blackouts! I am putting in 60 kWh because that gives me two days of autonomy before the back up generator kicks on. To me it’s all about being self sufficient. Actually the best case that I could make for traditional lead acid batteries is that they are unaffected by EMP from say a hypersonic missile? I just keep a few extra BMS’s on hand.
                          If there's hyper-sonic missiles coming in, I'd rather be at ground zero. Where do you get distilled water for the batteries ? what do you eat when the spam and pineapple runs out ? What will recharge the functioning FLA batteries, and what is going to discharge them ???
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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                          • #28
                            I agree however I don’t live in an area that is likely to be a candidate for a first strike. So I will need to do my best with what I have. I have hardened my energy production system and I to the best of my ability planned for such an event. The majority of people effected will not likely have the luxury of going out on the first buss.

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