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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    Other than the hobbyists you mentioned earlier I do not see many DIYers using LOC18650. Its irrelevant to compare them to all the other choices. Stick with your Pb batteries.
    If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.
    No question that Li chemistry batteries can deliver much more power then other chemistry types based on their Ah rating.

    But in the end who is paying for that battery? A homeowner performing a DIY / Contractor install or a homeowner paying a POCO through an increase in power costs for all of that Utility GW storage?

    All I say is for someone to run the numbers before they commit to a battery back up system.

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    • #17
      As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.

      If you want relative autonomy during an outage and can afford a battery system spend the dollars...

      If you are trying to optimize dollars, stick with simple Solar on grid tied string inverter.

      But every one is different with different needs

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      • #18
        Originally posted by scrambler View Post
        As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.

        If you want relative autonomy during an outage and can afford a battery system spend the dollars...

        If you are trying to optimize dollars, stick with simple Solar on grid tied string inverter.

        But every one is different with different needs
        I agree which is why I have a 12kw generator that provides a lot of power should the grid go down. But if batteries work for you and you don't mind the cost then go for it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by scrambler View Post
          As far as I am concerned, a Battery backup system is not about numbers, but about convenience.........

          But every one is different with different needs
          I agree. With the high rates and shifted time periods in California, it is about the numbers and convenience.
          9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ampster View Post
            .....
            ... Stick with your Pb batteries.
            If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.
            Stick with your PB.
            Sure I will stick with my cheap PB till you or others can convince me to switch to LFP. A simple solar user like me do not need a lot of continuous power.

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            • #21
              I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you to switch. From where you are standing Pb is your best choice. Other readers are free to roam about and make a different choice.
              9 kW solar. Driving EVs since 2012

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              • #22
                Yup, stick with what you know. OR, better yet, add to your knowledge with hands-on, and not just discussion.

                I enjoy flooded FLA. I also enjoy AGM, especially pure-leads and get some heat for that. But I don't care. It's fun, and I love to hammer them properly with limited solar-insolation challenges. They are easy to undercharge, but *I* know how to maintain them properly. Sunking helped me out and it paid dividends.

                But would I power my house with Optima's? No.

                What has been preached here before is to start out with a "learner bank" before going big. It's easier and cheaper than before with LifeP04.

                Note that I said LifeP04, and NOT anything else like tesla batteries, computer batteries which are *different* types of li-ion. But that's me.

                To avoid a ready-fire-aim situation, and if you want to cheaply prove to *yourself* about LFP, even a simple dreaded cheap drop-in these days will let you play not only with cycle life, but all the other factors that you may find fun.

                There's a lot of junk out there, but instead of recommending one bang together a 4S / 12v learner bank like I did here years ago, or pop for a $1K BattleBorn, heck even this thing from Amazon has already replaced my pure-lead AGM's just for the fun factor alone:

                https://www.amazon.com/TalentCell-Re...9953682&sr=8-8

                I can hold this in the palm of my hand. The 48ah Optima Yellowtop that this compares to - can't do that! (Although these LFP's are NOT designed for starter use!)

                There are even cheaper examples like the MIADY LifeP04 batteries. Pretty much bottom of the barrel, but still good enough to let one learn even if they want to abuse it - within reason.

                So yeah, you don't need to hang LVD, HVD or anything on them. Taken care of in case you biff it.

                Speaking of not needing an LVD since it's already built in, here's what's really cool:

                With LFP learner bank like this, go ahead and attach a small inverter. Run it until the inverter itself hits it's own dead-man switch at typically 11.7v . That will kick off before the internal lvd in the battery does!

                Normally allowing a dead-man switch on an inverter to be your lvd on a regular basis is a big no-no with lead acid. But with LFP, where the voltage range is different, the typical 11.7v dead man switch on an inverter is not a huge worry now! It is actually usable, so one *could* set up a very simple cycling setup with a cheap LFP batt, and cheap inverter, and not worry so much about killing the battery.

                This will free you up to investigate the lack of sulfation worries, EQ, ability to use the *entire* capacity if you want, run up to about .5C charge, large discharge. Fully charge it or don't - up to you.

                I guess what I'm saying is that something like the above would be like what we would have suggested to a newcomer about going down the nearest store, picking up cheap golf-cart battery to learn on - before trying to design a whole-house system first.

                Instead of asking us, your questions will be answered by your own hands-on. While it may not make you switch, it *IS* fun to learn something new. And not that expensive if you consider it a learning instrument that goes beyond mere talk on my end.

                Sorry to ramble.
                Last edited by PNjunction; 05-02-2021, 07:55 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                  I've easily gone past 1000 cycles. In fact, I didn't realize full potential because in real-world use for more than a decade, (not just doing repetetive charge/discharge in a lab), the batteries aged faster than I could use up the cycles!

                  Reminder - please specify LifeP04, and not just "lithium". Not all lithium is equal. Your cellphone battery is not LFP, and is rated for only 360 cycles.
                  I usually average about 5 years with a cell phone. That's about when the battery becomes unusable. Roughly 1 cycle per day, probably between 50% and 90% DOD most days, then left on the charger all night. That's over 1800 cycles. I've done this multiple times.

                  I have a bunch of lithium power tool batteries dating back to early 2014. I don't know how many cycles they have had, but not thousands. The 7 year old batteries are still holding about 75% as much as newer batteries, I think they're dying of old age before I can wear them out.

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