LiFeYPo4 questions

[inetdog]

I always laugh when someone makes that comparison! You are minding someone else's business.

People come here asking about solar panels and batteries and all sorts of related technology. I have not yet seen a member asking for (or getting) help controlling their drinking or smoking, and that is fine by me.

[russ]

The last time I ran into someone that was disdainful of the outrageous costs of LFP and solar, he was on his second pack of cigarettes for the day and about finished with a sixpack of beer ($4500/year and wife did the same, $9000/year Kaching).

I always laugh when someone makes that comparison! You are minding someone else's business.

[reed cundiff]

Was pointed to the LFP threads on a boating forum. They are four or five years ahead of RV'ers and off-grid solar folks in their sophisticated use of LFP. The primary argument against their usage is economy of scale: of great use to people that cruise (do not put into marinas for the main part), and of little use for those that primarily tie up at marinas or just go out for a few weekends a year in their boats. Solar is probably a problem with sailboats due to shadowing from mast, cordage and sails, and a problem on powerboats with little real estate to emplace them. The boaters do use considerable wind power to charge. We considered wind power but have never been places where it would really be useful - and then probably don't want to spend a lot of time with wind whistling by - and attendant dust etc.

I think we are in the same boat (so to speak) here. For RV'ers such as ourselves that primarily boondock and are worried about weight, LFP makes sense. For those that spend their time at RV parks or weekend a few times a year, they are an unnecessary expense. There is the same economy of scale for fixed sites: the faster charging rate and DOD usage is important for many and not so much for others. Cost compared to one's whole up power system and of the home/RV is not notably significant. You choose where to save and where to spend as you think appropriate. We have blowup sailing kayak instead of motorboat; recumbent trikes instead of motorcycles or ATVs; watch DVDs instead of satellite RV; and use Wi-Fi when available rather than satellite; do not eat out etc etc. The last time I ran into someone that was disdainful of the outrageous costs of LFP and solar, he was on his second pack of cigarettes for the day and about finished with a sixpack of beer ($4500/year and wife did the same, $9000/year Kaching).

Reed and Elaine

[PNjunction]

Well I am speaking from direct experience with EV's where LFP has already been put to to real life use. Currently One of the least expensive, not the cheapest is Calb CA series an dis very popular in the DIY EV field with a track record. Current pricing is in the neighborhood of $0.40/wh compared to $0.20 for high end FLA. The LFP has roughly 1000 cycles compared to 2000 cycles of FLA. It is just simple economics at this point in time.

That price narrows for those using high-end agm's. But that is covered elsewhere.

No doubt CALB is one of the top, if not THE top major player - just don't forget that the major advancements are primarily for the high current EV market, and those using them as relatively low-current housebanks (like 0.2 to maybe 0.3C max) will not be able to utilize those advancements. Yes, build quality, enhanced to low-temperature operation are desirable.

For instance, the older blue "SE" series should be entirely adequate for house-bank duties, whereas the upgraded gray "CA" or "FI" series would be overkill in most cases. Maybe not for EV, but for a house-bank, yes. I'm not sure the SE line is produced anymore, so one may want to watch out for old-stock dumping, or abused customer-returns and the like.

This also gives thought that even brands like Hi-Power may be just fine with our relatively mundane application for them - again sized appropriately for a typical house-bank, and not some small portable job that gets hammered. I have no experience with Hi-Power.

Lurkers - just having cells or a website promoting them does not automatically mean quality. Don't buy from those who formerly wrapped their cells with duct-tape.

GBS is another popular brand of LFP and one of the more expensive brands. They just came out with another upgrade because the line of yesterday performed poorly.

Huh? My GBS are performing just fine. I don't see anything BUT second-gen or even 3rd-gen available these days. Even then, these are waaaay over-capable for the application we put them to.

But yes, it is true about not just jumping into these things because they are new or because EV users like them. For a housebank user, you've really got to justify the operational characteristics that differ from lead, and see if they have any meaningful relevance to your own style of operation.

[Mike90250]

I want to be in the info sharing business, so SolarPanelTalk DOES have a
Forum/Off grid solar/Batteries : energy storage/ Lithium-ion section which you have found.

[Sunking]

Lead and LFP can coexist peacefully - each of which needs to be properly engineered and maintained. Problem is, when discussing LFP, one is always on the defensive, and that becomes very tiring to participate in rather quickly.

Well I am speaking from direct experience with EV's where LFP has already been put to to real life use. Currently One of the least expensive, not the cheapest is Calb CA series an dis very popular in the DIY EV field with a track record. Current pricing is in the neighborhood of $0.40/wh compared to $0.20 for high end FLA. The LFP has roughly 1000 cycles compared to 2000 cycles of FLA. It is just simple economics at this point in time.

GBS is another popular brand of LFP and one of the more expensive brands. They just came out with another upgrade because the line of yesterday performed poorly. Even their new line appears to fall short of less expensive brands like Calb. He asked why not many threads or no forums, and he got his answer because there is not enough commercial interest until the economics change. It is really that simple and don't forget I am a huge supporter of Lithium batteries, but I will not lie about them or make hay where there is none. As of now the cost is justified for EV use because weight and density is #1 priority in a vehicle. Weight is not an issue for RE systems.

Bu tif you want to know how to size them and technical aspects have at it and I will help, but to say they are ready for prime time in RE they are not. To go one step further they are not ready for EV's, and they wil be ready for EV's before Solar RE applications because there is where all the money in R&D is going. RE is just going on the ride benefiting from another application as a side show. .

[PNjunction]

Have not found a thread/forum yet that does discuss actuall usage.

About the closest you'll get to sanity using lifepo4 nearly the way we use them is here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/lifepo4-batteries-discussion-thread-for-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html

At this time however, in most other forums, all the discussion turns into an endless bench-racing of specs and pricing, where financial gurus and those from outside our application with no hands-on whatsoever jump into the fray. It is usually a thankless job for moderators to keep things under control.

Of course nobody counts the learner-banks, or ones destroyed by sulfation from insufficient charging, improper EQ, exposed plates and all the plethora of lead-acid maintenance that *should* be done.

Sunking is an exception, although I will take exception to his financial outlook from a long-term standpoint. Problem is, we haven't achieved even a decade of use to back things up, despite manufacturer predictions. HOWEVER, one must understand that these are shark-filled waters and he is trying to protect the neophyte from falling into things hook, line, and sinker, so I understand the gist. Uh oh, here it comes!

I think most of us using lifepo4 just go underground to avoid the surface drama, and smile approvingly - as long as we weren't taken in by the sharks to start out with. We'll probably have to wait at least 5 more years to satisfy the decade of use argument, but by then the focus may have changed that they haven't been used for 100+ years like lead.

Lead and LFP can coexist peacefully - each of which needs to be properly engineered and maintained. Problem is, when discussing LFP, one is always on the defensive, and that becomes very tiring to participate in rather quickly.

[reed cundiff]

It would be far more helpful to answer the question(s) posed, then to go off on one's own thought line.
Reed
erstwhile senior physicist at Army Research Laboratory

[Sunking]

Have not found a thread/forum yet that does discuss actuall usage.

Just the way the market works. As of yet Lithium chemistry is not an economical alternative. Until LFP or any of the other forms will have to be able to compete long term, and as of now it cannot. The only market that can justify the use is EV's, and not every EV went lithium because of expense.

Its just plain ole economics 101.

[reed cundiff]

Thread devoted to LFP users

There is a lot of interest in LFP usage in solar/off grid applications; however, there are seemingly very few folks that have experience with them I noted on the Northern Arizona Wind and Solar forum that it might be a good idea to have a thread devoted to folks with actual hands on experience with LFP battery banks for such usage. Should like to know if folks are interested in such a thread getting started. Should like it on actual experience or valid questions: should hope naysayers would got to other thread.

Have not found a thread/forum yet that does discuss actuall usage.
Reed

[PNjunction]

It may seem oversimplistic, but safety is one reason I use GBS cells. They are the only ones that include removable purple top-terminal covers over each cell, which can save your you-know-what provided one actually uses them.

There are other high-quality cells like CALB, Winston, etc of course, so I'm not trying to sound like a salesman. But if it ever came to dropped-wrench time, at least with the GBS you'll have a fighting chance right off the bat when they show up at your door.

[SunEagle]

I've learned to slow down around batteries. At $11 a pop for an HRC fuse, I'm learning quickly.

The reason I don't want any major drama if a multimeter fuse blows, cat rated or not, is also to protect myself from involuntary jerk-reflex injury from the sound!

If I'm really on the ball, I try to take a second look around where my elbow, forehead or whatever might go when I do this and think about another approach when things are tight or pointy obstacles are nearby. And of course not driving my hands into another live circuit.

I have to watch myself from becoming complacent around a "simple" 4S battery and wiring.

Complacency is the number one reason for Utility line men deaths. You can never get too comfortable when handling energized cables and equipment because then you get careless.

[PNjunction]

I've learned to slow down around batteries. At $11 a pop for an HRC fuse, I'm learning quickly.

The reason I don't want any major drama if a multimeter fuse blows, cat rated or not, is also to protect myself from involuntary jerk-reflex injury from the sound!

If I'm really on the ball, I try to take a second look around where my elbow, forehead or whatever might go when I do this and think about another approach when things are tight or pointy obstacles are nearby. And of course not driving my hands into another live circuit.

I have to watch myself from becoming complacent around a "simple" 4S battery and wiring.

[SunEagle]

I own an Extech 470 myself for general purpose stuff, but won't use anything but a Fluke for li-ion battery management.

I'm not a multimeter snob, but here goes the why for Fluke ...

I can trust a Fluke out of the box, without having to verify the accuracy. When I do, the specs are exceeded, and not a sloppy window. With li-ion, the difference between 3.697v on a Fluke, and 3.600v on the Extech can be a big deal. This is especially so for guys using chemistries other than lifepo4, where the difference between 4.2 and 4.3v is even more dramatic.

One thing you can do if you haven't already, is measure a typical 3v watch or other consumer battery, take that battery to someone with a Fluke or even better accuracy stuff, measure and compare. Now you can compensate on the Extech if you have to.

Because voltages change so quickly in the deep discharge and steep charge knees, I need both speed of the display, along with no overshoot or undershoot when I put the probes on the batteries. While an 87V was fine for doing this, it was overkill for just voltage measurements, and the lowest end of the line, the 11X series has proven to be very adequate with lifepo4. I can't wait around for the Extech to settle.

Flukes tend to fail gracefully when I make a mistake and blow the HRC fuse with a tiny snap. I don't want a cheaper meter blowing out through the seams and into my hands when I do this. Internal blast-shields and so forth are a big deal when I make a mistake with a 400ah battery. Ordinarily this kind of internal protection is designed to help prevent arc-flashes in huge industial panels, but I feel safer with a Fluke even at relatively low voltages - but possible 100's of amps going through temporarily when I goof.

It just freaks me out when I see videos of guys with kilo-buck lifepo4 banks using 10$ dimestore voltmeters to measure their infrastructure. The 530 is obviously better than that, but it still doesn't meet my needs around lifepo4 batteries.

Know that these are just my personal opinions - if one wants to use something else, go for it. Other meters (well, ok maybe Agilent excepted) just remind me of Dirty-Harry: "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

I understand you preference to Fluke. They make really quality meters.

Before I use any meter on AC circuits I try to make sure they have a CAT IV @ 600v rating. Most of those cheap meters either don't show the rating or have a CAT II @ 600v. I never feel lucky when it comes to electricity. I just stay cautious.

[PNjunction]

I own an Extech 470 myself for general purpose stuff, but won't use anything but a Fluke for li-ion battery management.

I'm not a multimeter snob, but here goes the why for Fluke ...

I can trust a Fluke out of the box, without having to verify the accuracy. When I do, the specs are exceeded, and not a sloppy window. With li-ion, the difference between 3.697v on a Fluke, and 3.600v on the Extech can be a big deal. This is especially so for guys using chemistries other than lifepo4, where the difference between 4.2 and 4.3v is even more dramatic.

One thing you can do if you haven't already, is measure a typical 3v watch or other consumer battery, take that battery to someone with a Fluke or even better accuracy stuff, measure and compare. Now you can compensate on the Extech if you have to.

Because voltages change so quickly in the deep discharge and steep charge knees, I need both speed of the display, along with no overshoot or undershoot when I put the probes on the batteries. While an 87V was fine for doing this, it was overkill for just voltage measurements, and the lowest end of the line, the 11X series has proven to be very adequate with lifepo4. I can't wait around for the Extech to settle.

Flukes tend to fail gracefully when I make a mistake and blow the HRC fuse with a tiny snap. I don't want a cheaper meter blowing out through the seams and into my hands when I do this. Internal blast-shields and so forth are a big deal when I make a mistake with a 400ah battery. Ordinarily this kind of internal protection is designed to help prevent arc-flashes in huge industial panels, but I feel safer with a Fluke even at relatively low voltages - but possible 100's of amps going through temporarily when I goof.

It just freaks me out when I see videos of guys with kilo-buck lifepo4 banks using 10$ dimestore voltmeters to measure their infrastructure. The 530 is obviously better than that, but it still doesn't meet my needs around lifepo4 batteries.

Know that these are just my personal opinions - if one wants to use something else, go for it. Other meters (well, ok maybe Agilent excepted) just remind me of Dirty-Harry: "Do you feel lucky, punk?"