DC Space heaters and BTUs per square feet

[plateauhops]

The use of grey water is touchy.

Cleaning filters daily is not something most people are interested in.

I agree and I don't expect most people would be interested in cleaning filters.

NASA can do it as they had the cash and the staff. The solar panels NASA uses are also a bit more expensive than commercial panels - something like 1000 times more expensive?

The filtering system I agree was more expensive and more personnel were there- though in outer space I'm curious of how much maintenance it needed- the mechanisms that were automated for the duration of the space flight. As for solar panels, I wasn't saying I needed NASA-grade panels- the ones made for residential systems look mature already.

If grey water sits 24 hours it can well be considered to have become black water.

I agree too and thus I would be interested in a system that processes it in a shorter time frame.

İf everything went down the toilet PV panels on top of a house would attract a lot of unwanted attention I expect.

Since I would like to avoid that, I'd like to develop/manufacture a utility system in enough quantities that would be so abundant that it would not be a high-demand product. In the United States, where I live, I can spend a day walking down one of the many alleys in my suburban neighborhood come back at the end of the day having found perfectly working CRT monitors and televisions, desks, lamps, and appliances that everyone already has. There are some people who pick them up for scrap metals, but it's not hard to find technologies that are slightly out-of-date for free. It's mainly because flat screen TVs and more comfortable desk chairs apparently appeal to a large number of people in the U.S, so they throw their old one out. Many people I know have 2 or three TVs, or more. Why can't we manufacture millions of PVs? They wouldn't depreciate in value the way a car does when it leaves the lot. If they were everywhere, would anyone want to steal one? How many people actually use their roof space? And perhaps, they'd have enough cheap components to build their own shelter, wherever they are. Similar to how an ATX motherboard standardizes FRUs for universal access. That could prevent an economy from going bad, but I can't say for sure. Just a thought. It's probably different in other countries where resources are respected and reused/repaired more. Not that one product or system that would make the economy stable, but I would like to integrate and develop a hardware utility system (metaphorically the way a motherboard integrated sound, ethernet, video cards) that can be used in any location, by anyone, whether it's urban, suburban, or rural. Modular parts that can be scalable for larger buildings.

For example, the ATX form factor for cases and motherboards are open standards, non-proprietary with dimensions and that are available such that any computer case or motherboard manufacturer can design the components so they conform to IEEE or ISO standards of discrete devices. Which is maybe why today, I can buy an ATX motherboard for $30-40 (among the cheapest-w/ a complete build for under $300) and not $3000 in 1985 for a proprietary computer form factor (ATX wasn't available until 1995) and probably cost $300,000,000 in 1960 or more by NASA for control rooms in Houston. That was only made for a few specific uses. Since water, heat, and electric are universal needs, their peripheral ports could be standardized onto a converged medium. For example, imagine if the illustration of the floor plan was like a blueprint for a motherboard, but let's call this a fatherboard (or whatever you want to call it). I would specify the dimensions of the the AWG ports and publish them to an open standard like free open-source software licenses (GNU/GPL) and using OpenCAD, an open source variant of Lonworks/BACNet, QModbus, BMS & RepRap, etc. In such a specification, the connections could simplify the dimensions needed for manufacturing pipes (of many lengths, depending on house size) that could connect the AWG to the water tank heater and other pipes could go to the fridge for storage (for ice cold drinking water). The fridge itself could be of any brand or type- it would just benefit from having connectors that fit ones that go to AWG pipes. Water could also be stored in the AWG. Another example would be pipes that go from the solar water heater to the shower. Metaphorically, it would be like would be an ethernet cable that connects an NIC card to a router or hub always needs a CAT5 cable and not a network cable of another specification, but it can be made by any manufacturer. In this analogy, an ethernet cable would be like pipes and data would be water in this system (no pun intended on "a series of tubes", an internet meme). Since none of these devices need to be all processed centrally, it's not an entirely congruent metaphor. However, the PSU in this case could be the batteries. I would agree with the idea that AC and electricity is already a universal medium for energy, but the devices that use it aren't as conveniently swappable. And in this type of utility system, I would help devise standard dimensions for connectors such as pipes, washes and filters-more valuable because universal compatibility. In Europe there were some news articles that wanted to make one standard cell phone charger plug so people who buy new cell phones don't have to throw out their old charger, using a number of volts with the same size connector, etc. Companies that make their own proprietary charger would understandably object because they would lose some sales. I think that when a motherboard was first designed, it set limits to proprietary standards that may have also made it more difficult to make some devices compatible and probably frustrated many non-compatible device makers. Though it set goals in terms of efficiency by having it all work under one system, and making it modular to deal with scalability issues. The consumer could also benefit by having more manufacturers to choose from when it comes to finding cheaper standardized parts. And, by setting limits to power consumption of certain parts, it allows designers to have an idea of what kind of wattage levels many energy intensive appliances can be reduced to. Maybe that's why a motherboard might use 25 watts rather than 100 watts of crudely linking a # of discrete devices when a large niche market would be satisfied with a standard system. Selling a system that provides the physiological needs of Maslow's hierarchy, not so people would just focus on that, but so it gets it out of the way and so there's more time to pursue higher needs (including social ones). I think many people have to spend all their time just surviving and getting paid minimum wage, using that income towards bills (mainly mortgages and health costs, but also heat, water, and electric, so I want to get those costs out of the way, so they don't need to be monetized, and, if possible, as bartering would be difficult but a curious alternative economic form) so that they have more time to socialize, thus I want to make it easier to survive so it's easier to live well. By removing all the inefficient parts, and only starting with the bare necessities, it could at least be presented in a way that may be economical- not to survivalists, but for anyone who wants to live easier. It seems that many technologies that may have originally been designed for emergency situations evolve it's marketed purpose into one that became a regular household product.

The scope of my idea is both reductionist, holistic, and interdisciplinary. If I asked on this forum that I wanted to buy a solar panel system that can power a Smith Corona typewriter, VCR, a vintage 1980s era VHS camcorder that plugs into an outlet, a cassette recorder for audio, a stereo, and a CRT television, you might recommend (or not) a large solar panel system of 10KW covering a large suburban home's roof if it used maybe 2kw. But If I instead replaced all those appliances with a netbook that does that all with a built in sound recorder, webcam, keyboard, USB, solid state harddrive with gigabytes of music and video storage that runs on 15 watts, I'd only need one solar panel. Also, DEVap: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/1...ergy-Use-50-90 So I'm using this critical analysis of the history of convergent multimedia technology's progress in efficiency/reductions and am applying this as a meta, transferable idea as a large engineering goal (perhaps end goal) toward a basic, integrated household utility system. Basic as a standard motherboard. So if anyone sees this as a not impossible goal, I would encourage you to forward/freely edit this to anyone who would like to develop this. Relatively speaking, in terms of progress on this, I think solar thermal panels are more technologically mature than solar electric, but both are more mature and affordable than an Atmospheric water generator, and I also think the atmospheric water generator is still slightly or much more mature than a greywater filtering system. Please correct me on my relativistic estimates if I'm wrong. So if they were all integrated, perhaps the costs of the most expensive parts might be lowered if they were included and mass produced. Not saying it will and I can analogize that there is still a large market in computers that prefer some of their devices remain separate, such as the discrete video card market. Intel owns a large share of the video card market~50%, yet they are integrated. Nvidia~29% ATI 18%?. Could the same happen with utilities? Integrated graphics, arguably the most expensive part of a computer, could bridge the metaphor that the most expensive part of this system- a greywater purifier, could become cheaper than a discrete (external water center) plant. But, if a barebone "motherboard" (household utility system) like an ATX were designed, would most people buy it (like generic Intel graphics, because they're acceptable graphics for basic needs), rather than opt for discrete utilities/graphics? The strategy is to make an integrated standard cheaper than discrete, while technically still keeping it modular (so it is discrete physically, but integrated in the sense that it is generated from the home and not from an external source (printing press/one hour photo/film studio). I hope I didn't make this too complicated, but I hope someone can understand this engineering/design project as a practical one and not just as an academic exercise. An additional end-goal would be to transfer a meta-idea- Nicholas Negroponte's goal, the OLPC- if a compact utility system were made so it could be affordable and distributed anywhere the way laptops evolved in price reduction. Thanks for your time.

[russ]

The use of grey water is touchy. In some states, I believe CA is one, the water must be released below the top of soil in the surrounding area.

The crud, slime etc from body oils, soaps and whatever make it very difficult to filter with success over periods of time. Cleaning filters daily is not something most people are interested in. NASA can do it as they had the cash and the staff. The solar panels NASA uses are also a bit more expensive than commercial panels - something like 1000 times more expensive?

If grey water sits 24 hours it can well be considered to have become black water.

The survivalist question was to let me know whether to expend any effort or not. I consider that line of thought to be a bit short of a full deck. İf everything went down the toilet PV panels on top of a house would attract a lot of unwanted attention I expect.

[plateauhops]

@ plateauhops

What is your end goal? To have a totally green cabin? Survivalist? What utilities do you have access to?

Russ

I live in a suburban area, and I have ample utility access, including natural gas, electric lines, municipal water, sewage, and television station receptions & internet , so I'm not at a loss of access. I'm not sure I want to have a cabin (it wouldn't have to be strictly green either). I want to know if the recent trend of dramatic and impressive energy/wattage reductions in appliances such as fridges and laptops can be made low enough to run on batteries, which when there are enough in a pack, serve as their own backups. I think my end goal is to understand through research what affects the costs of utilities in areas with price fluctuations that make the cost of living prohibitive or not and figure out how to make them less expensive. So, if I can simplify the way a utility system is designed in a household, by converging technologies or by standardizing some widely-sought parts by making them modular and swappable, then perhaps they can be made more affordable because they are mass produced. Also, if I can simplify the number of parts, perhaps the fluctuations in global prices could also be made more stable, if the only parts that would need replacing would be filters on a water pump/purifier, or batteries every 10 years. Thus some economic markets I think would have a better idea of the cost of energy, as energy seems a very volatile market. And thus more people can make predictions on costs if devices such as PVs will have a good chance of lasting 25 years or more.

I don't consider myself survivalist, as I'm not sure I'd need to be. I consider myself somewhat social. Those were some great questions. Thanks.

[russ]

@ plateauhops

What is your end goal? To have a totally green cabin? Survivalist? What utilities do you have access to?

Russ

[plateauhops]

It can't be re-used anywhere for potable water use.

Except by NASA and at Water Security HQ in Reno
from the Wired Link:
"Back at Water Security HQ, the contents of the bucket get a final stir, and the experiment begins. The water is sucked through an intake hose and into the purification system - prefilter, carbon filter, iodinated resin, disinfectant holding tank, iodine scrub, and a polish. (Don't be shy with the polish, guys.)

After 30 seconds, water dribbles out of a nozzle and into a plastic cup. I raise it with a trembling hand. A toast to Alan Shepard and all the brave astronauts who endured the wrong stuff in their space suits for the advancement of science: This number one's for you. I take a big astronaut gulp, lower the cup, and wait for the noxious aftertaste. Nothing.

The water tastes pretty good - it's definitely not Evian, but it is better than most city tap."

So that's why I included the EcoloBlue or other sort of potable water maker. It would produce 1-3 gallons of potable water a day for cooking and drinking water, and then the greywater could be recycled for shower water and laundry... though I did consider recycling greywater to make it potable- it'd be extra-intensive, like what NASA does...I agree most pumps, strains, and filters are very energy intensive. Now I'm going to look for incredibly small systems that filter 3-5 gallons for shower water...(even as few as tens of mililiters might be needed to begin at a scaled down model, find the optimum efficiencies, and then scale back up. I'm interested in one that works like an instant drip coffee maker- processing a few drops at a time, over the course of the day, where 24 hours may be enough to process just the amount needed for shower water, and so it doesn't cause deep/sudden discharges on the batteries, but a gradual usage. Though, I know an instant drip uses a lot of power- and that only boils water..(and not that water needs to be boiled here, but I was using just part of that concept as an example...) though that might be a lot too, and am unsure if it could filter that amount at a lower power over the course of 24 hours using a combination of gravity-fed pumps and active-powered mechanics if I want to take a shower every day...

[Mike90250]

Alas, greywater re-use is a tough one. It must not be allowed to become stagnant, and many cities have codes preventing it from being recycled except at the city plant. It can't be re-used anywhere for potable water use.
The major way is to use the rinse water from the washer, as the wash water for the next load, in the same day.
Otherwise, treatment usually consists of a tank and leach field like a septic system, but 50% smaller.

California has just (2010) allowed greywater systems to be permitted, but there is still a lot of restrictions. A cattail pond, or lagoon, seems to be a viable treatment system.

Pumping , filtering, straining are all power intensive, and require a lot of manual cleaning.

[plateauhops]

Also, one part of this system which I've never seen tried is a thorough greywater recycler. I think this would be the most challenging aspect, and I didn't detail it enough. Instead of having the greywater flow out of the building and into topsoil or a greywater hookup at an RV park, it would be recycled as much as possible and looped back into a purification system. Every greywater system I've read always dumps it into the soil. I understand that it can pollute the soil if it's not filtered correctly, and thus I am not interested in outputting it to the soil. I only want to send it directly back to the purifier to reuse whatever can be reused for shower and drinking water, however the number of filtering steps that requires. I do not know how much water could be reused, nor how many watts/HP of pumps that would need (but if the PVs are too little, for the purpose of this puzzle, extra electricity could be assumed to develop the integrated utility system first, then to work on making it run on a low wattage system later). It would attempt to separate the solids from the water. This would certainly require some storage of waste, which would need to be delivered to a garbage facility once in a while, just like any other disposable, but it would be dehydrated waste. Considering water used for washing dishes will likely have microorganisms and soap suds in them from food and detergent, I am also interested in if perhaps some of the detergent could be recycled too using a sieve. If the dry food waste could be reliably separated, then I would consider adding that to the composter storage, such that only the composter would hold organic wastes.
Here is a list of wastewater treatment methods:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_waste_water_treatment_technologies

If anyone knows of ones that emulate a water treatment center at a residential scale, I would be interested in seeing how it could be integrated into the above illustration.
Also, the image I made be a bit blurry, I will try to redraw it with a more clear figures and jpeg compression. Also, the fridge is not an essential part of this system, and could be omitted in the image since it wouldn't be strictly required to run a solarwater tank, AWG purifier, drainback/controller. The AWG includes an ultra-violet light microbial irradiator. Additional technology considerations on possibly filtering urine, as NASA astronauts would do: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.08/urine.html

Also, I know the original forum thread is less related to this, so let me know if I should repost this on a new thread.

In this model I attempt to develop a home that produces heat, water, and electricity. Heat eventually dissipates and is recollected using a solar thermal panel, water must be filtered and purified, and electricity helps run the systems that purify the water. The only thing it doesn't produce is food. The only thing that would occasionally need replacements would be the battery, and the parts for the filters... Everything else would last many more years and any unreusable waste would be removed manually.

[plateauhops]

Since you are in the north, you will likely have freezing issues to deal with. You may need a drain back system with a differential controller to manage it and the pump.
I've been told http://www.solarroofs.com/index.html is reliable. YMMV.

30 - 50 gallons of 160F water, in a plain, un-insulated barrel, will slowly radiate heat all day and night. I know from making mead, it takes several hours to cool down just a 5 gallon batch before we can add yeast.

integrated water filter and heater 2.jpg

So i've been gathering solar, heating, and filtering systems and have illustrated a rudimentary idea of integrating many of the technologies that have been discussed here. I'm starting with a Tumbleweed because of the proximity and visualization of the faucet to the shower, the roof, and a water tank.

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/houses/tarleton/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13664360@N08/3422302775

I'm interested in recycling all shower and faucet greywater into a filtration system, and plan to use an EcoloBlue or other atmospheric water generator that can be connected to two solar thermal water tanks (one for heat, one for shower/faucet hot water).
I would include a differential drain back system.

http://www.ecoloblue.com/30sDeluxeSolar
Apparently one ecoloblue w/ one 300 watt panel can generate 1-3 gallons of potable water a day running at 280watts, which I'd feed into the hot water system provided by the solar thermal, and filtered in a loop. Though there may be better options, as I might even find something that doesn't require the inverter in that package and instead perhaps buy a DC dehumidifier and just feed that into a different purification system. Other obstacles that would bring up would mean air that's too dry in the winter, nor might there be enough humidity to generate water. New questions are: how many watts are needed for the differential and water pumps. (note: the composter is not part of this cycle, and toilet water is not used)

So the goal is to get 4 Solar PVs and one solar thermal panel (or amounting to 3'x5', doesn't have to be exact) (denoted as "ST" in the diagram) to power electric, heat, and generate water using just the roof. It's a puzzle I'm interested in solving. Will update soon.

[Sunking]

I know from making mead,

Geez I though Moon Shiners was a right coast and south thing. :becky:

[Mike90250]

Since you are in the north, you will likely have freezing issues to deal with. You may need a drain back system with a differential controller to manage it and the pump.
I've been told http://www.solarroofs.com/index.html is reliable. YMMV.

30 - 50 gallons of 160F water, in a plain, un-insulated barrel, will slowly radiate heat all day and night. I know from making mead, it takes several hours to cool down just a 5 gallon batch before we can add yeast.

[plateauhops]

Even something as simple as a 55 gallon drum, with a low flow circulating pump, would store heat overnight, and slowly release it all night. 35ga might work too. Water is a very good storage medium for heat. you could also use rock in the drum, to take up space, and use less water/anti-corrosion mix too, water circulating will heat the rock, and it will still release it overnight.

Solar thermal also works on cloudy days when solar PV will generate little power (my 3,000 watt array only produces 300 watts on a cloudy day, just 10% of nameplate)

Would one ~36"x60" solar thermal panel be enough to heat 117 sq ft with enough storage in the drum for overnight? A better way of asking this is, how do I determine solar thermal BTU potential? Does insolation apply in the same way as PVs, just more efficiently? 1kwh= 3400BTUs is one figure I found. I could have it on the same side of the roof of four PVs in an array facing the sun snug with the dimensions of the roof border). (assuming I could fit 5 panels on one side of the roof) I haven't figured out if I'd need/want more for heating/boiling water... (though that would be practical too, even if I had less electricity for a TV, etc; for example my netbook uses an Atom processor at 2.5 watts+peripherals, lcd <15watts). I'm not sure how well solar thermal stores heat when it's facing 90 degrees or the other way (indirectly getting sun, if any), which I'd only do if the solar thermal panels could produce enough without facing the sun on the other side of the roof)

[plateauhops]

Sounds like you live up north with poor solar insolation of 2 hours or less of sun. If that assumption is correct you will need at least 2000 watts of solar panel for each Kwh of usable power, or $4000 just for the panels. That should make up your mind real fast.

It's already been made up- I would go with solar thermal instead of DC space heaters from solar electric. Yes, I live in the north.

[Mike90250]

AGM batteries are currently the winners for high effiencecy, with low standby losses.
Some forms of lithium batteries may be better, but the tech is more set up for high power car usage, not off grid solar, yet.

[Sunking]

Sounds like you live up north with poor solar insolation of 2 hours or less of sun. If that assumption is correct you will need at least 2000 watts of solar panel for each Kwh of usable power, or $4000 just for the panels. That should make up your mind real fast.

[plateauhops]

Even something as simple as a 55 gallon drum, with a low flow circulating pump, would store heat overnight, and slowly release it all night. 35ga might work too. Water is a very good storage medium for heat. you could also use rock in the drum, to take up space, and use less water/anti-corrosion mix too, water circulating will heat the rock, and it will still release it overnight.

Solar thermal also works on cloudy days when solar PV will generate little power (my 3,000 watt array only produces 300 watts on a cloudy day, just 10% of nameplate)

I'll definitely go with solar thermal. That's a great idea- 55 gallons seems enough. Not sure how much much I will be able to produce with 4PVs, but LEDs and an efficient fridge I'll get. I guess there will be days where I'll only get a couple hundred watts, so a battery system that doesn't "leak" many watts is something I'm looking into.