Grid Tie Battery Bank - AGM sealed or deep cell?

[MrEnergyCzar]

You do not need solar to do what you want. All you need is a Battery Charger > Battery > Inverter (12 volt DC to 120 VAC inverter) .

I don't fully understand what you described above earlier. When you say Battery charger, I'm lost. I do well with pictures or video. I envisioned you describing a big 700lb version of this.

http://www.solar-electric.com/bakitwi56amb.html

I have no idea what or how this thing works. or how it gets replenished if the power is out.

At this point, I may have to start asking who is in the CT area that would be able to do what I want done and explain "all" options discussed here. It would have to be face to face to avoid confusion. and there lies the problem, there isn't anyone.

Thanks,
MrenergyCzar

[Sunking]

You do not need solar to do what you want. All you need is a Battery Charger > Battery > Inverter (12 volt DC to 120 VAC inverter) .

[MrEnergyCzar]

OK I think ?I understand what you mean but you really need to understand the terms and what they mean.

Watts is a measurement of Electric Power at any givem moment in time.

Watt Hours is a measurement of Electrical Energy. Watt hours take 16 years of USA college to understand or a 5th grader any where else in the world. It is a very long complicated formula of Watt Hours = Watts x Hours

For example lets say you have a 100 watt light bulb and turn it on for 10 hours. The light uses 100 watts at any given monent in time and if turned on for 10 hours is 100 watts x 10 Hours = 1000 watt Hours = !Kwh or about 10 cents worth of electricity. Told you it was complicated. All you need is another 10 years of US education to understand it.

Anyway moving on I think you mean your refrigerator uses 792 watt hours, not watts, and your stove uses 1512 watt hours not watts. That we can work with and tell you exactly what you need.

First you 1 Kwh battery inverter will work just fine, all you need is a battery and a battery charger and you can make you rown inexpensive UPS system. But you have to make some decisions in regard to how many real days of Autonomy yu are willing to pay for. If you want 2 real days, you need 4 days of Autonomy in battery capacity.

OK in 1 day your fridge and stove 2320 watt hours/day. NOW TELL US HOW MANY DAYS YOU WANT, and The Voltage of the Battery Inverter you have.

Here is an example you can even do yourself but requires some simple math.

Inverter and battery voltage = 12 volts.
2.5 Days Real time Autonomy, so 5 days Battery Autonomy.
Daily WH usage 2320 Watt Hours.

Battery size in Amp Hours = [5 days x Daily wh / Battery voltage. So [5 x 2320 wh] / 12 volts = 966 Amp Hours. That is a $2880 battery weighing 700 pounds
Battery Charger in your case is 25 amps. Something like this one.

Total cost using my example is $3200 that will give you 2.5 days of real run time on FLA or 4 days with AGM

Go with 2 real days then and the inverter is 12volts but it produces 120v ac so that's where I get lost. You have the inverter and battery voltage = 12 volts. I'm sorry, but the inverter is either 12v dc (the car) or 120v ac (after going through the inverter). I don't understand what you mean by battery voltage? I know my solar and potential battery bank is 48volts, maybe not. You're talking about one single 12v battery being used indoors or for the solar grid tie battery hybrid thing? And where in the scheme of things is that yellow charger you attached in the link going? Attached to what?

MrEnergyCzar

[MrEnergyCzar]

the ones I stated in the huge battery bank are warranteed for 10 years and probably last longer if well cared for.
You have a back up generator in the Volt so to speak.
How about considering a sunny Island (Sunpower uses SMA inverters for the most part if the case is red then it is probably a sunnyboy.) and a reasonable battery bank size. say 1-2 days of autonomy to a DOD of 40%.

I have a Sunpower SPR-5000m inverter. It's gray color. With a smaller solar tied battery bank, can the batteries be replenished by just a 1,000w continuous charge from the car? It wouldn't be hardwired in, just a cord so I assume not. Could a simple system like this attached one be worked into what I already have without having to change the inverter? or would that prevent the batteries from begin replenished by the solar? I can have separate additional panels dedicated just for this thing? Keep the main system separate. http://www.wholesalesolar.com/backup...up-system.html

Thanks,
MrEnergyCzar

[Sunking]

Fridge: Avg. watts per hour: 33, Avg. watts per day used: 792,

Pellet Stove: Avg. watts per hour: 63, Avg. watts per day used: 1,512.

OK I think ?I understand what you mean but you really need to understand the terms and what they mean.

Watts is a measurement of Electric Power at any givem moment in time.

Watt Hours is a measurement of Electrical Energy. Watt hours take 16 years of USA college to understand or a 5th grader any where else in the world. It is a very long complicated formula of Watt Hours = Watts x Hours

For example lets say you have a 100 watt light bulb and turn it on for 10 hours. The light uses 100 watts at any given monent in time and if turned on for 10 hours is 100 watts x 10 Hours = 1000 watt Hours = !Kwh or about 10 cents worth of electricity. Told you it was complicated. All you need is another 10 years of US education to understand it.

Anyway moving on I think you mean your refrigerator uses 792 watt hours, not watts, and your stove uses 1512 watt hours not watts. That we can work with and tell you exactly what you need.

First you 1 Kwh battery inverter will work just fine, all you need is a battery and a battery charger and you can make you rown inexpensive UPS system. But you have to make some decisions in regard to how many real days of Autonomy yu are willing to pay for. If you want 2 real days, you need 4 days of Autonomy in battery capacity.

OK in 1 day your fridge and stove 2320 watt hours/day. NOW TELL US HOW MANY DAYS YOU WANT, and The Voltage of the Battery Inverter you have.

Here is an example you can even do yourself but requires some simple math.

Inverter and battery voltage = 12 volts.
2.5 Days Real time Autonomy, so 5 days Battery Autonomy.
Daily WH usage 2320 Watt Hours.

Battery size in Amp Hours = [5 days x Daily wh / Battery voltage. So [5 x 2320 wh] / 12 volts = 966 Amp Hours. That is a $2880 battery weighing 700 pounds
Battery Charger in your case is 25 amps. Something like this one.

Total cost using my example is $3200 that will give you 2.5 days of real run time on FLA or 4 days with AGM

[Naptown]

5.4 solar is grid tied, non hybrid Sunpower regular inverter. Apparently FLA batteries only last 5-7 years with maintenance. I thought they last 10-15. Discouraged from doing solar battery bank. I'd need to replace my inverter and would have to get a normal gas generator which isn't going to happen. I would have loved to have a battery bank without a generator and just have the bank shut off well before it got to 50% Dod. Use the grid to equalize each month.

Plan B is to get internal house battery to run pellet stove and fridge during power outages. Would back-fill or replenish the in house battery UPS when the power is out with Chevy Volt's ability to give 1,000 watts pure sine power with 2,000w surge continously. Volt uses .14 gallons per hour. Runs about 5 minutes per hour.

So the fridge with surge is less than 900 watts? Well, the fridge plus the Pellet stove surge has to be less than the Volt's 2,000 surge? The Pellet stove has a max amp fuse of 5 and is 120v. Am I wrong to say the Pellet stove surge max draw is 600 watts? I am assuming max Amp fuse means max amp but could be wrong. Add the two up and if they both surged at the same time you get 1,500 watts total. If this is the case, I can probably just run the Volt generator into a power strip and attach the Fridge and Pellet stove to it and skip the battery altogether. Need input on that. Also, whats the best brand 1,000w true wave inverter around? Ames?

Thanks,
MrEnergyCzar

the ones I stated in the huge battery bank are warranteed for 10 years and probably last longer if well cared for.
You have a back up generator in the Volt so to speak.
How about considering a sunny Island (Sunpower uses SMA inverters for the most part if the case is red then it is probably a sunnyboy.) and a reasonable battery bank size. say 1-2 days of autonomy to a DOD of 40%.

[MrEnergyCzar]

OK i am confused!
How did you end up with this configuration. on the UPS
This is not enough battery to run these items for a day much less 5 days autonomy as you started out to want.
How much solar do you have currently? and how is it configured (inverters etc)

5.4 solar is grid tied, non hybrid Sunpower regular inverter. Apparently FLA batteries only last 5-7 years with maintenance. I thought they last 10-15. Discouraged from doing solar battery bank. I'd need to replace my inverter and would have to get a normal gas generator which isn't going to happen. I would have loved to have a battery bank without a generator and just have the bank shut off well before it got to 50% Dod. Use the grid to equalize each month.

Plan B is to get internal house battery to run pellet stove and fridge during power outages. Would back-fill or replenish the in house battery UPS when the power is out with Chevy Volt's ability to give 1,000 watts pure sine power with 2,000w surge continously. Volt uses .14 gallons per hour. Runs about 5 minutes per hour.

So the fridge with surge is less than 900 watts? Well, the fridge plus the Pellet stove surge has to be less than the Volt's 2,000 surge? The Pellet stove has a max amp fuse of 5 and is 120v. Am I wrong to say the Pellet stove surge max draw is 600 watts? I am assuming max Amp fuse means max amp but could be wrong. Add the two up and if they both surged at the same time you get 1,500 watts total. If this is the case, I can probably just run the Volt generator into a power strip and attach the Fridge and Pellet stove to it and skip the battery altogether. Need input on that. Also, whats the best brand 1,000w true wave inverter around? Ames?

Thanks,
MrEnergyCzar

[Naptown]

OK i am confused!
How did you end up with this configuration. on the UPS
This is not enough battery to run these items for a day much less 5 days autonomy as you started out to want.
How much solar do you have currently? and how is it configured (inverters etc)

[Naptown]

Here are the official compressor numbers:

First line says: Thermally Protected 115v 60Hz
Second line: 6.9 LRA 1PH 100v 50Hz.

Hopefully that will help.

Thanks,

Don't quite understand the 100V and particularly the 50Hz (not usually found in the US)
However the start amperage is 6.9 A
So start in your case would be 6.9 x 120 = 820Watts

[MrEnergyCzar]

Plug the fridge back into the kill a watt and get a reading with just the compressor and fan running (no door open and not in defrost) Multiply that by 5 and you will get a pretty good indication of what the starting amperage is. Also use the VA function not the watt function so power correction for true watts needed can be calculated.

Here are the official compressor numbers:

First line says: Thermally Protected 115v 60Hz
Second line: 6.9 LRA 1PH 100v 50Hz.

Hopefully that will help.

Thanks,

[MrEnergyCzar]

Actually yes and no
With a purely resistive load yes they are equal
With motors Plug in your Kill a watt and switch from Watts to VA and notice the difference.
Motors have power factors that do not effect the POCO but if not accounted for can create disaster on a battery system.

You would also need to add all the loads that may be running at the time to come up with an inverter size.

I'd only be running the pellet stove and fridge. The manual doesn't have the start-up numbers, none actually. I may remove the back steel panel to read the infamous compressor label to put this thing to rest. I'm not concerned about the battery not working because I had an engineer on the phone walk me through each device with the Killawatt and he assurred me both fridge and pellet stove could be run off them. We came up with a combined 500 VA running to be conservative. The main battery was to have 1,040 watts plus several add ons. Here's the battery, the 1500va one if that helps. http://www.xpcc.com/nxrt_brochure_black.pdf


MrEnergyCzar

[Naptown]

A volt amp VA is about, what, 1.33 watt. Sounds like 740 may be the max but the instantaneous draw at motor start for the compressor may be higher, maybe 1000w? Does you KAW show max power? I think some may. The use manual may have the startup draw. The 1000w volt powered inverter "should work" but make sure you have appropriate fuses.

This was an ok thread. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=105926

http://www.power-solutions.com/watts-va

Actually yes and no
With a purely resistive load yes they are equal
With motors Plug in your Kill a watt and switch from Watts to VA and notice the difference.
Motors have power factors that do not effect the POCO but if not accounted for can create disaster on a battery system.

You would also need to add all the loads that may be running at the time to come up with an inverter size.

[MrEnergyCzar]

Plug the fridge back into the kill a watt and get a reading with just the compressor and fan running (no door open and not in defrost) Multiply that by 5 and you will get a pretty good indication of what the starting amperage is. Also use the VA function not the watt function so power correction for true watts needed can be calculated.

That was interesting. The door was closed but running, then something else came on (maybe defrost, clicking sound) and the amp reading went from .3 to 6.4 while the VA reading went from 11 to 740. Then back down to .3 amp and 11 VA respectively. So what exactly do I multiply by 5 to get the starting Amps?

Thanks,
MrEnergyCzar

[Naptown]

Plug the fridge back into the kill a watt and get a reading with just the compressor and fan running (no door open and not in defrost) Multiply that by 5 and you will get a pretty good indication of what the starting amperage is. Also use the VA function not the watt function so power correction for true watts needed can be calculated.

[MrEnergyCzar]

What or who told you that in the big red print.
Count on about 5-10 times the power for starting. If you can find a plate on the compressor that says LRA = ?
That would be the starting current of the compressor.
Finally since we do not work in watts consumed but in watt hours plug the kill a watt into the refrigerator for a week or a few days and same thing for the pellet stove. Divide by number of days to get daily watt hour consumption which is what everything is based on.

Oh, yes, I did those long term measurements when I cut my homes electric use 75% before the solar came in. Here are those numbers:

Fridge: Avg. watts per hour: 33, Avg. watts per day used: 792,

Pellet Stove: Avg. watts per hour: 63, Avg. watts per day used: 1,512.

Of course the back of the Fridge is sealed, no exposed compressor, and the manual mentions nothing in terms of electrical. The silver sticker inside says "Full Load Amp 6.5". If that's not the highest amp of the fridge then what does full load mean? If I have to, I'll take apart the back of the fridge and find the compressor, I'm assuming it's behind the steel face guard in back.

Some person on the phone for one of the battery ups companies said I may not need a battery because I told her my max surge was 800 watts. I guess now that's in question.

Thanks,
MrEnergyCzar