PURE GEL vs AGM vs GEL batteries

[PNjunction]

Well, I just checked out a private-label Deltec 6-CNFJ-170 lead-crystal from their main brochure.

Once past the marketing stuff, I finally saw a lead-calcium agm, low internal resistance, and a 0.3C maximum current inrush. But of course the electrolyte is the lead-crystal. Aside from the electrolyte, it appears much like any other lead-calcium agm and charges like one too.

Ok, so I do see improved life cycles which interest me. Deep discharge recovery from 100% nice, but I can bring back a pure-lead from that too. (Where 100% DOD does NOT mean zero volts!)

Problem is, on this side of the pond, the grids are made out of unobtainium. Could there just be licensing / IP issues that the bigger manufacturers don't want to tackle? Too costly to manufacture on a large scale?

And, without knowing any sort of pricing, it would be hard for me to do a cost/benefit analysis between sticking to replacing standard high-quality lead-calcium agm's, (Deka/East-Penn, Lifeline, etc) or just moving up to pure-lead agm's, (Enersys, Northstar/Exide, etc) which would eat a lead-crystal's lunch in the charge acceptance department if 0.3C, like most common lead-calcium agm's, is all an LC can do.

(Interestingly enough, while looking up the charge procedures for the new Exide AGM pbc battery, it shows a 0.5C maximum inrush, as opposed to the usual 0.3C for lead-calciums, BUT that 0.5C rate also applies to their earlier AGM products too, so it makes me wonder what is really going on there...)

[inetdog]

(Note - link munged for courtesy)
https://www.axcom-battery-technology..._user_NEU_engl . pdf

You over munged the link (leaving the literal "..." in it instead of the full path), so it does not work even when you merge the ".pdf" back in.

A usable munged reference is this one: "http://www.axcom-battery-technology.de/uploads/media/LC_user_NEU_engl . pdf"

Anyway, based on that information, it looks like the electrolyte really is still H₂SO₄ but rather than the acid being in the form of a water solution the H₂O part of the electrolyte gets bound up in the form of SiO₂ hydrates (I prefer that term to crystal, as crystal carries a lot of connotations for people which can be misleading.)

[SunEagle]

Do not have any experience with Axion, but 33 years of experience with Exide. The Carbon or PbC battery was originally developed for the EV markets but flopped due to its low Specific Energy density of roughly 30 wh/Kg. No where close to lithium of up to 200 wh/Kg. So as you can imagine if take 600% more weight using lead carbon to get the same energy unit. A 100 mile lithium battery weighs in around 200 to 400 pounds. A PbC would weigh in around 2400 pounds and take up 20 times more space.

Anyway enough about that. My point is Exide is a well know and respected battery manufacture. I never heard of Axion up until a year ago. Guess which one I trust?

What about the "copper top" one. Everyone trusts them.

[Sunking]

Axion (not to be confused with Axcom) uses carbon for pbc
Exide uses graphite for their pbc

Do not have any experience with Axion, but 33 years of experience with Exide. The Carbon or PbC battery was originally developed for the EV markets but flopped due to its low Specific Energy density of roughly 30 wh/Kg. No where close to lithium of up to 200 wh/Kg. So as you can imagine if take 600% more weight using lead carbon to get the same energy unit. A 100 mile lithium battery weighs in around 200 to 400 pounds. A PbC would weigh in around 2400 pounds and take up 20 times more space.

Anyway enough about that. My point is Exide is a well know and respected battery manufacture. I never heard of Axion up until a year ago. Guess which one I trust?

[PNjunction]

The touted difference between a standard AGM Lead Acid battery and a Lead Crystal battery is in the physical and chemical composition of the electrode(s), not the composition of the electrolyte.

That's not what this user application manual from Axcom states - unless I'm reading it wrong, the emphasis is placed mainly on the crystallizing electrolyte used in conjunction with standard agm technology.

(Note - link munged for courtesy)
https://www.axcom-battery-technology..._user_NEU_engl . pdf

Are you perhaps thinking of PBc agm batteries, where the negative plates have carbon / graphite / carbon-graphite additives?

I'm actually playing with one right now, an Exide Edge AGM that uses graphite as the negative plate additive - albeit in the wrong application since it is basically an SLI starter - although they do seem to offer a hybrid faux-deep cycle "edge". Well, for now that is.

Axion (not to be confused with Axcom) uses carbon for pbc
Exide uses graphite for their pbc

For now it looks like PBC is intended for SLI enhancement, and the lead-crystal for deep cycle.

[Kweight]

Hi Sunking,
Lead Crystal batteries have come and gone as a brand name previously, what I am referring to are not AGM batteries at all. They don't have the normal electrolyte make-up inside as do AGM batteries (loose electrolyte), but they make use of a way of crystalising a gel electrolyte following 3 cycles. These particular batteries have only been released for sale in the UK and Europe for 18 months, please don't confuse old brand names with new technologies. The whole purpose of this type of battery is its capability for long discharges not short duration UPS applications. Solar and wind energy are perfect applications.
As for being a fool, 23 years of working with energy storage on a worldwide basis suggests otherwise, faceless criticism is something that happens on forums I know but you need to know what people have done before starting a bun fight. I would also point out that should you happen to be American, you will never have seen these batteries before, so please bear that in mind.

Honestly, in my opinion, Lead Crystal battery is just one of Gel battery or AGM battery combined with Gel electrolyte. Some Chinese battery companies use Lead Crystal battery as buzz Marketing word to promote and sell it.

[Sunking]

And an extra high price tag to pay for the marketing hype.

My sentiments exactly. I can get better and longer cycle life for less bucks. AGM and it derivatives have their niche place, but you pay a premium for it. It is all about bang for the buck. Right now that title belongs to FLA. I think someday Lithium might take over, but right now a long way from it. At least it has improved somewhat. 10 years ago lithium was 1000% higher. Today 400 to 500%.

[Mike90250]

...
The touted difference between a standard AGM Lead Acid battery and a Lead Crystal battery is in the physical and chemical composition of the electrode(s), not the composition of the electrolyte.

And an extra high price tag to pay for the marketing hype.

[inetdog]

Ok, I'm confused - Axcom, makers of lead-crystal batteries in their technical application user's manual specifically state (page 5 of the pdf) that they are AGM, but using the magic crystallizing function of their electrolyte to do the job as compared to a standard agm.

Sometimes it is hard to fit a particular supposedly new technology into old descriptive buckets.

At the moment all Lead Acid batteries rely on liquid sulfuric acid as the electrolyte, potentially with various additives for better resistance to sulfation. In the same way, the plates all currently involve some chemical and physical form of lead for both electrodes, with possible addition of other metals for special properties.

Even GEL and AGM batteries use essentially liquid sulfuric acid, physically combined with a gelling agent or an absorbtion/adsorbtion medium to keep the acid from moving around within the battery as it is tipped. They are also what is known as electrolyte-starved systems, without a reservoir of additional H_2SO4 in free flowing form.

The touted difference between a standard AGM Lead Acid battery and a Lead Crystal battery is in the physical and chemical composition of the electrode(s), not the composition of the electrolyte.

[PNjunction]

Ok, I'm confused - Axcom, makers of lead-crystal batteries in their technical application user's manual specifically state (page 5 of the pdf) that they are AGM, but using the magic crystallizing function of their electrolyte to do the job as compared to a standard agm.

[Sunking]

Hi Sunking,
Lead Crystal batteries have come and gone as a brand name previously, what I am referring to are not AGM batteries at all. They don't have the normal electrolyte make-up inside as do AGM batteries (loose electrolyte), but they make use of a way of crystalising a gel electrolyte following 3 cycles. These particular batteries have only been released for sale in the UK and Europe for 18 months, please don't confuse old brand names with new technologies. The whole purpose of this type of battery is its capability for long discharges not short duration UPS applications. Solar and wind energy are perfect applications.
As for being a fool, 23 years of working with energy storage on a worldwide basis suggests otherwise, faceless criticism is something that happens on forums I know but you need to know what people have done before starting a bun fight. I would also point out that should you happen to be American, you will never have seen these batteries before, so please bear that in mind.

There are many companies that have released Lead Crystal batteries. Axiom being one of them, and the technology is virtually the same from on manufacture to the next. I have been watching them for the last 5 years. The claims sound great, but 3rd party testing and price point as of now do not give them any advantage.

For example 3000 cycles is great. But you can buy a premium FLA that has up to 4000 cycles at about half the price with a better warranty of 10 years vs 3 years of Lead Crystal. I am all for new battery tech and watch it closely. Right now all th eR&D money is going into Lithium which is the smart money as Lithium has roughly 500% more Specific Energy density than Lead Crystal. Energy density is not all that important for RE applications, but battery tech is going after Electric Vehicles and not RE. RE applications is just a secondary perk.

[phild]

Hi Sunking,
Lead Crystal batteries have come and gone as a brand name previously, what I am referring to are not AGM batteries at all. They don't have the normal electrolyte make-up inside as do AGM batteries (loose electrolyte), but they make use of a way of crystalising a gel electrolyte following 3 cycles. These particular batteries have only been released for sale in the UK and Europe for 18 months, please don't confuse old brand names with new technologies. The whole purpose of this type of battery is its capability for long discharges not short duration UPS applications. Solar and wind energy are perfect applications.
As for being a fool, 23 years of working with energy storage on a worldwide basis suggests otherwise, faceless criticism is something that happens on forums I know but you need to know what people have done before starting a bun fight. I would also point out that should you happen to be American, you will never have seen these batteries before, so please bear that in mind.

[Sunking]

try looking at Lead Crystal Batteries.

You have got to be joking or a fool. Which one? Lead Crystal is just a buzz Marketing word for AGM battery with a higher price tag.

[Kweight]

24 pcs 2V batteries in series to get 48 Volt battery bank

We have a 3kw wind turbine
A 3 kw solar panel array
Inverters etc
We need to order the batteries to complete the set up
I am so confused about the best btteries to use
We think we nee 12v x 200 AMP hr x 20 batteries
We run 240 volts in the house
PLEASE what are the best batteries for us to purchase
Price is not the issue
The best cycles, best long term life the best

thanks

For 48V battery bank, 24 pcs * 2V batteries in series is one of good choice; Flooded Lead-acid battery(OPzS battery) is your best choice, long life, but need to be maintained sometimes. Or you can choose pure Gel battery(OPzV battery), and AGM 2V battery is good as well, both of them are maintenance free.

[Mike90250]

phild
As far as I am concerned, "lead crystal" batteries are simply AGM batteries with a label. Add enough amps to them and the vents will pop. Leave them discharged for a couple days and they sulfate.
And the site you gave, uses intrusive java script, but it looked like from the front page, they deal with UPS systems, which demand reliability, and after several events, the batteries are changed out. Totally different from off-grid deep cycle requirements.