Self install... To attempt, or not to attempt?

[steel_3d]

A question to those who have done it: Is it more pain than it's worth?

Some of the reasons why I'd like to do it:

- I can find diy kits around $2/W, vs $3.50/W installed. But I can afford it either way, so money's not the main issue.
- I like to do things myself, understand them, makes it easier to maintain them. And "If you want it done right, do it yourself".
- It's really hard to find a reputable installer. Too many fake 5-star reviews, almost every company has at least a few reviews complaining about installers messing up, delaying, being disorganized, avoiding post payment service, etc. I hate depending on dumb people, lazy people, or assholes. I'm also limited on installers because I want to use HERO financing (self install is allowed).

Obviously it would be a lot of work, but that's no biggie. I've been reading up on solar in the past year, I know roughly the system I want, the pros and cons of various components and setups, so I'm not a total noob.

I'm wondering more about things like dealing with permitting, will the authorities dick me around more, being a self installer? As long as I can read and fill out forms as requested, are there secret permitting issues that I can't know without having the experience of an installer? Anything else I should know?

As a little background on the kind of guy I am: I'm a computer programmer (a good one, not some two-bit web programmer ), with a math degree. I've been tinkering since I was a kid, I do everything from engine rebuilds in my cars, to body work, to plumbing and electrical in my house, to hemming my jeans. I almost never let anyone do work for me unless it requires expensive machinery I don't have. On the other end of the spectrum, I sorted out my wife's non-trivial green card case that a lawyer wanted to charge many thousands for. In short, I'm a do-it-yourselfer, and I can handle physical work as well as paperwork. I'm not really worried about being able to do it, it's more a question of which way is more headache: Dealing with a contractor, or doing it myself?

I'm in LA and I'll be dealing with LADWP. I've heard horror stories about them dragging their feet for 8+ months to turn on, there's even a class action lawsuit filed against them by solar owners.

Again, my main questions are:

- Are the authorities going to dick me around too much, being a self installer?
- Are there any "secrets" that people only find out through experience?
- Any tips if I decide to do it myself?

Please try to avoid snarky remarks. I need solid info.

Thanks!

[solar_newbie]

My take is if you are comfortable to work on the roof while being able to carry the 40 lb panels around. Do it your self.
If you ever need to hire someone or bring a friend to the roof to help. Do not do it. They fail = you toss. Liability of someone fall from your roof is a lot .
All paper work is nothing. I read through them and see even the high school kids can get it done. All inspector is human and their job is to ensure homeowners safety, so it does not mean they want to srew you.

[foo1bar]

- Are the authorities going to dick me around too much, being a self installer?
- Are there any "secrets" that people only find out through experience?
- Any tips if I decide to do it myself?

The AHJ is probably going to treat you as good as a contractor or better.
I would not expect them to be any stricter on you than on a contractor. And if you show you're trying to do things right most likely they'll be more helpful to you than to a contractor.
But the inspectors are human and behavior for them can vary quite widely from person to person as well as location to location.

I think finding the rafters is something that can take a bit of experience.

Tips:
Don't fall off the roof.
Be safe.
Don't attempt as a DIY project if adding a new circuit breaker to a panel is stretching your skills.
Determine your annual usage.
Measure your roof accurately including all protrusions (chimney, vents, etc)
Examine your roof - determine if it needs replacing first.
Use something to layout your panels on the roof (Autocad or similar would work - I used Google Sketch)
Determine what you'll use for roof attachments and racking.
Look at what you have for shading - that'll determine whether you want to go with a microinverter or solaredge setup.
Understand the 3' setback rule
Understand grounding requirements
Quadruple your estimate for how many hours you'll need to do the project
Plan on numerous trips to HD/Lowes/hardware store.
Use http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

[DanS26]

Do not buy a "kit". Design your system and then buy your parts direct.

Civic Solar or Wholesale Solar, many others too. Go to design sites by Fronius or SMA. Use PVWatts.

Ground mount....go to IronRidge or similar.....Google is your friend.

You sound like a true DIYer...go for it.

[SunEagle]

A question to those who have done it: Is it more pain than it's worth?

Some of the reasons why I'd like to do it:

- I can find diy kits around $2/W, vs $3.50/W installed. But I can afford it either way, so money's not the main issue.
- I like to do things myself, understand them, makes it easier to maintain them. And "If you want it done right, do it yourself".
- It's really hard to find a reputable installer. Too many fake 5-star reviews, almost every company has at least a few reviews complaining about installers messing up, delaying, being disorganized, avoiding post payment service, etc. I hate depending on dumb people, lazy people, or assholes. I'm also limited on installers because I want to use HERO financing (self install is allowed).

Obviously it would be a lot of work, but that's no biggie. I've been reading up on solar in the past year, I know roughly the system I want, the pros and cons of various components and setups, so I'm not a total noob.

I'm wondering more about things like dealing with permitting, will the authorities dick me around more, being a self installer? As long as I can read and fill out forms as requested, are there secret permitting issues that I can't know without having the experience of an installer? Anything else I should know?

As a little background on the kind of guy I am: I'm a computer programmer (a good one, not some two-bit web programmer ), with a math degree. I've been tinkering since I was a kid, I do everything from engine rebuilds in my cars, to body work, to plumbing and electrical in my house, to hemming my jeans. I almost never let anyone do work for me unless it requires expensive machinery I don't have. On the other end of the spectrum, I sorted out my wife's non-trivial green card case that a lawyer wanted to charge many thousands for. In short, I'm a do-it-yourselfer, and I can handle physical work as well as paperwork. I'm not really worried about being able to do it, it's more a question of which way is more headache: Dealing with a contractor, or doing it myself?

I'm in LA and I'll be dealing with LADWP. I've heard horror stories about them dragging their feet for 8+ months to turn on, there's even a class action lawsuit filed against them by solar owners.

Again, my main questions are:

- Are the authorities going to dick me around too much, being a self installer?
- Are there any "secrets" that people only find out through experience?
- Any tips if I decide to do it myself?

Please try to avoid snarky remarks. I need solid info.

Thanks!

I don't believe the AHJ will cause you any issues if you meet all local code and fire regulations. If you are capable to physically do the install as well as understand all requirements you shouldn't run into any major problems. Just make sure whatever engineering calculations (wind or weight loads and the inverter over-current device being installed in your main panel) are performed and provided with your permit application.

Although based on what you stated is sounds like your POCO may drag their feet to turn on the net meter not matter who does the install.

Remember it is THEIR grid that you are connecting to so they make the rules. And if they aren't happy then your system can get delayed.

[DanS26]

80% of your effort should be in design and understanding NEC requirements.

Buying the parts and actual install is relative simple if you are handy and have the proper tools.

If you have never taken the cover off of your electrical panel.....then stop right now and get professional help.

[SandyEggo]

I've always been a big DIY er but the combination of very high voltage and a very high rooftop made me go with the pros this time! Good luck to you though!

[emartin00]

The LA inspectors are sticklers for details, so be prepared for that.
Also make sure your entire system is UL2703 Listed. That means the racking manufacturer has tested their system with that particular module. The system also has to be approved by LA County, so you'll want to get everything approved well ahead of time.

[thejq]

If you ever need to hire someone or bring a friend to the roof to help. Do not do it. They fail = you toss. Liability of someone fall from your roof is a lot .

Completely agree! If you are hiring someone, make sure he has the correct license and properly insured (> $1M). Otherwise, in CA, he is automatically your employee. It's not worth the risk to save a few bucks.

[Amy@altE]

The LA inspectors are sticklers for details, so be prepared for that.
Also make sure your entire system is UL2703 Listed. That means the racking manufacturer has tested their system with that particular module. The system also has to be approved by LA County, so you'll want to get everything approved well ahead of time.

IronRidge XR rails are UL2703 and approved for LA.

Be aware of the 120% rule when you are sizing your system, NEC 705.12D. If you have a 200A main breaker box, the biggest solar system you can do without having to jump through hoops is 7600W. The breakers in your box can't exceed 120% of the 200A bus bar. So if you have a 200A breaker from the grid, the biggest you can add for the output of the inverter is 40A, which means 7.6kW inverter. Any bigger and you'll have to do a line side tap or increase your breaker box. Neither is something a DIYer would most likely want to do.

Check with your AHJ before you start to see if (s)he has any tips or warnings for you.

To figure out wire sizing, go to YouTube and search for "Wiring Your Solar Power System". I made that video almost a year ago, I've gotten good feedback, it may be helpful.

[foo1bar]

So if you have a 200A breaker from the grid, the biggest you can add for the output of the inverter is 40A, which means 7.6kW inverter. Any bigger and you'll have to do a line side tap or increase your breaker box. Neither is something a DIYer would most likely want to do.

Check with your AHJ before you start to see if (s)he has any tips or warnings for you.

I agree with talking with the AHJ.
I'd probably come up with a preliminary plan - how many panels, roof layout, etc. and go in and ask what else they want to see. Some AHJ's have an example of what they expect for solar plans.

There is a 3rd option for a 200A panel where you want to do more than 40A breaker for solar.
And that's to decrease the 200A main breaker to something smaller (ex. 150A). Many panels have ability to put in a smaller main. It is something more than replacing a branch circuit breaker, but it's not as daunting as replacing the entire panel. And although you'd have to compute whether the house would have sufficient power with only 150A or 175A breaker, most likely it will. (IIRC doing the load calculation to determine minimum main breaker you need is a bit involved, but quite doable by DIY)

[Amy@altE]

I agree with talking with the AHJ.


There is a 3rd option for a 200A panel where you want to do more than 40A breaker for solar.
And that's to decrease the 200A main breaker to something smaller (ex. 150A).

I usually don't mention that option because I figure if you need more than a 7.6kW inverter, you are probably going to have loads totaling more than 120A. Nuisance tripping is, well, such a nuisance.

[inetdog]

There is a 3rd option for a 200A panel where you want to do more than 40A breaker for solar.
And that's to decrease the 200A main breaker to something smaller (ex. 150A). Many panels have ability to put in a smaller main. It is something more than replacing a branch circuit breaker, but it's not as daunting as replacing the entire panel. And although you'd have to compute whether the house would have sufficient power with only 150A or 175A breaker, most likely it will. (IIRC doing the load calculation to determine minimum main breaker you need is a bit involved, but quite doable by DIY)

Just a warning about a serious eccentricity of LADWP that was reported last year:

If you have a 100A service and panel and decide that the cheapest way to meet the 120% rule is to install a new 200A panel with a 100A main breaker LADWP will require you to upgrade your service to 200A at your expense even though none of your loads have changed and the main breaker is still 100A.
AFAIK no other POCO in the country does this.

PS: Somewhat inconsistently they do not require a larger service when the panel has a 125A or 225A bus. Possibly because you cannot get a 125A or 225A main breaker to put into them?

[J.P.M.]

Just a warning about a serious eccentricity of LADWP that was reported last year:

If you have a 100A service and panel and decide that the cheapest way to meet the 120% rule is to install a new 200A panel with a 100A main breaker LADWP will require you to upgrade your service to 200A at your expense even though none of your loads have changed and the main breaker is still 100A.
AFAIK no other POCO in the country does this.

PS: Somewhat inconsistently they do not require a larger service when the panel has a 125A or 225A bus. Possibly because you cannot get a 125A or 225A main breaker to put into them?

All that may suck, but the two rules of dealing with the inspector still apply.

[steel_3d]

Awesome info, guys and girls! Lots of very useful tips. Some of the best answers I've gotten on any forum on any topic up until now!

You guys have convinced me that this is likely worth doing myself, unless I run across an inexpensive and extremely reputable installer.

Now on to diving deeper into the research.

Many of your tips are super useful in getting me started on topics to research, and thankfully so far I fit within the parameters you guys have brought up. I have a 200A panel, and probably can't fit more than 6-7kW effectively, so I'll start with the 40W breaker.

Any really good websites or videos with detailed diy installs? I've found a few that are only decent (will get to your video soon, Amy!).

As far as locating the rafters... The simplest method I've found is tapping with a mallet, but haven't tried it yet. Any better methods? It seems trying to measure from the edges would make it easier to miss the mark, but might work in a pinch. My stud finder has a "deep" mode, but probably not nearly enough to go through the roof.

How many $/W should I budget for wiring, junction boxes, hardware on top of the main parts of the "kit" (panels, inverter, racking)? Any permit prices and misc costs?

Feel free to keep the tips coming. There's gold in this thread so far

Thanks!

Steve