Trouble matching controllers to panels.

[plantian]

I don't know what the wiring to the second inverter is but I assume its 10 gauge. I guess it just seems easier to me to just replace both inverters with 24volt inverters because then I don't need an AC disconnect, AC breaker box and AC outlet all wired up by me. Let's say its a 20 ft distance, maybe 40 ft was too much. Its worked for 15 years but was a bit under-powered.

Both inverters I think are cheap 12volt inverters from Fries. If I look for inverters with less watts as proposed earlier then I think I can just replace both with 24volt.

Here is an example, http://www.powerbright.com/aps600.html

The manual for this seems more complete and the outlets have GFCI (although it $140 more), http://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-GP-SW.../dp/B00153EYXA

Based on the Go-Power-GP-SW600-24-600-Watt-Inverter manual it seems that I will be okay with grounding all boxes, including the inverter to the negative DC line. How do you guys feel about that? Seems that the bonding occurs in the AC side of the inverter but not the DC side so I still need to bond the DC negative to ground and a loop will not be created. Does that sound correct?

EXCERPT FROM MANUAL FOLLOWS

Grounding.

Caution: The negative DC input of the power inverter is connected to the chassis. Do not install the power inverter in a positive ground DC system. A positive ground DC system has the positive terminal of the battery connected to the chassis of the vehicle or to the grounding point

Warning: Do not operate the power inverter without connecting it to ground. Electrical shock hazard may result.

The power inverter has a lug on the rear panel [chassis ground]. This is to connect the chassis of the power inverter to ground. The ground terminals in the AC outlets on the front panel of the inverter are also connected to the ground lug.

The chassis ground lug must be connected to a grounding point, which will vary depending on where the power inverter is installed. In a vehicle, connect the chassis ground to the chassis of the vehicle. In a boat, connect to the boat's grounding systems. In a fixed location, connect the chassis ground lug to earth.

The neutral (common) conductor of the inverter AC output circuit is connected (bonded) to the chassis ground inside the inverter. Therefore, when the chassis is connected to ground, the neutral conductor will also be grounded. This conforms to national electrical code requirements that states that separately derived AC sources (such as inverters and generators) have their neutral tied to ground in the same way that the neutral conductor from the utility line is tied to ground at the AC breaker panel.

Note: If the inverter is supplying power to equipment or a panel where the neutral and ground are connected (bonded), a ground loop will occur. If a ground loop occurs, the GFCI outlet will trip and output power from the inverter will be cut off. If your GFCI repeatedly needs to be reset, this would indicate a ground loop somewhere in your system. In this case, please have a qualified person inspect your electrical system or equipment.

[Bucho]

I don't know what the wiring to the second inverter is but I assume its 10 gauge. I guess it just seems easier to me to just replace both inverters with 24volt inverters because then I don't need an AC disconnect, AC breaker box and AC outlet all wired up by me. Let's say its a 20 ft distance, maybe 40 ft was too much. Its worked for 15 years but was a bit under-powered.

Definitely size your inverter to your power consumption, way more than you need is just a waste.

You can certainly add an AC breaker panel easily and for significantly less money than either of those inverters (assuming your wire would support that). Thing is both those inverters your looking at already serve as an AC disconnect and breaker, making breakers on the ac side both redundant and pointless as your inverter would take care of it first anyway. The gopower would even give you gfi, the only thing you could potentially gain with a panel is an arc fault breaker.

And as for an AC outlet, the receptacle costs $0.68, the box is another $0.98 and the wall plate's $0.47.

It's actually right now, using it for dc that you need a fuse or breaker.

[Bucho]

I don't know what the wiring to the second inverter is but I assume its 10 gauge. I guess it just seems easier to me to just replace both inverters with 24volt inverters because then I don't need an AC disconnect, AC breaker box and AC outlet all wired up by me. Let's say its a 20 ft distance, maybe 40 ft was too much. Its worked for 15 years but was a bit under-powered.

On Page 17 of that gopower manual: "GP-SW600-24V: Please use 8 ft or less of #8 Cable with a 70 Amp fuse."

[plantian]

So you're telling me 20-40 ft of 10 gauge wire to a 1500 watt 12 volt inverter is a bad idea??? But I only need 3 sets of 1/2" conduit that is entirely filled with copper to make this work. Yeah like I said, its all stupid but somehow its been working for 15 years.

Anyways, you're starting to sell me on the 110 AC option. Plugging a 110 AC extension cord into the inverter at the batteries and then running that in a conduit to an outlet is probably frowned upon by most people. But then I could have that line with GFCI protection as an additional safety feature. If I go up to this inverter http://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-GP-SW.../dp/B0015353W6, which has a hardwire option with a strain clamp then I would just need to splice in appropriate 110 AC wiring and run it through the conduit to an outlet. But I think then I just have 20AMP overcurrent protection and no GFCI protection. Do you think wiring a plug (pigtail) to an underground conduit in some sort of joiner-box would be legit?

Thanks.

[paulcheung]

If you want GFCI all you have to do is go Homedepot or electrical store to buy one GFCI socket plug and put it on the other end.

[plantian]

Right, but do you think I'll need a separate breaker or fuse on the hard wired line or do you think that's overkill?

[Sunking]

So you're telling me 20-40 ft of 10 gauge wire to a 1500 watt 12 volt inverter is a bad idea??? .

Absolutely horrible idea. Will not even work at high power levels. In fact if you tried to pull the full 150 amps required at 12 volts to make 1500 watts, will set your #10 AWG on fire. At 40 feet one way using 12 volts at 150 amps requires a minimum 1000 MCM or a cable about the size of you leg weighing around 8 pounds per foot, and cost of $16 to $18 per linear foot. You are going to need a bank loan or buy a copper mine. .................................................. ...................................... That is what happens when you use voltages made for TOYS, and flashlights. You made your bed. Guess what you get to sleep in?

[plantian]

It was a joke about the current setup but it turns out after checking that it is actually 8 gauge at around 20-25 feet. So with router, modem, phone system and printer its probably below capacity and occasionally spikes over when printing or starting printer up. Seems that the inverter is way too big as someone already mentioned. So it COULD light on fire but has not happened because of usage. But if you could give me some tips on the AC issue I mentioned earlier I would appreciate it.

[plantian]

I'm having a hard time finding an inverter that is < 2000W 24V that has a hard wire connection to run through conduit to the shed. The 2000W inverters are all pretty expensive and I really just need 1500W or maybe even 1000W which is $250 less and my system is up over $2500 already and I have barely included cabling and it doesn't include batteries. Anyone have any suggestions? I've looked at gopower, aims, etc. The other option I mentioned earlier is to splice a pigtail AC coord (male end of propery gauge extension cord) into a combiner box before going through the conduit. I don't see why that wouldn't work but it seems sloppy, what do you guys think?

[Bucho]

The other option I mentioned earlier is to splice a pigtail AC coord (male end of propery gauge extension cord) into a combiner box before going through the conduit. I don't see why that wouldn't work but it seems sloppy, what do you guys think?

http://www.amazon.com/Midlite-MDT4642W-Single-Gang-Decor-Recessed/dp/B002XDQAA6/ref=pd_sim_60_20?ie=UTF8&refRID=070S7SE3YCR7VXFBA4GM#Ask

[Mike90250]

Victron / Phoenix makes some smaller, pro style inverters with different output terminal options.

http://www.victronenergy.com/inverters/phoenix-inverter-180va-1200va

I finally bought the 24v 800va but have not installed it yet.

[Bucho]

If you want GFCI all you have to do is go Homedepot or electrical store to buy one GFCI socket plug and put it on the other end.

I suspect he's thinking about the underground wire which may or may not have been abused for a decade, not his printer or whatever small electronics he's plugging in. In which case a gfi on the far end won't do a thing for him.

[plantian]

@Bucho Running a 1' or less power cord from the inverter outlet to an inlet that goes through a conduit to an outlet would be perfect. Thanks for the idea. But not sure I can find a cord that small that has 20 AMP rating to match surge rating of 1500watt inverter.

@Mike90250 I might check that inverter out although I like the GFCI protection on the outlets of this other inverter, so using an inlet works although is a bit wonky.

I added an attachment summarizing things so far as I understand them. I still not 100% sure on the grounding yet.

But now I need to figure out how to place the indoor inverter (gopower 1500 24v) and indoor charge controller (maybe tristar 45A) into some sort of outdoor cabinet. It is under an overhang but pretty much it would be considered outdoors. I would have never imagined a 600W solar system would be so complicated. Anyone have thoughts on enclosures? Could I just put it all in a wooden cabinet? Venting the inverter and charge controller seems like the biggest difficulty. A lot of the "to code" quality outdoor rated cabinets I looked at are like a bazillion dollars. Like more than the equipment I'm putting in the cabinet.

[paulcheung]

I suspect he's thinking about the underground wire which may or may not have been abused for a decade, not his printer or whatever small electronics he's plugging in. In which case a gfi on the far end won't do a thing for him.

If that is the case, install the GFCI on the inverter side.

[radareclipse]

Tagged for later.