Solar City at NO COST??

[GLock27922]

Hello,

I live in Connecticut and like many others I am looking into renewable energy. Having zero knowledge of solar I called Solar City since I have been seeing there logo and trucks all over the place.

My impression was, I would have to pay and upfront cost for the equipment / install and make my money back over the years. Turns out they are offering me everything (site survey, equipment, install and warranty) at no up front cost at all. I will "lease" the equipment for 20 years at $169ish per month. Currently my bills goes from $220 to close to $400 in the summertime.

If I use more power then I produce then I buy it from the power company for .13kWh. Currently I am paying .22kWh and When I asked they said the price would not increase more then 2.9% per year and it would take me 20 years to pay what I am currently paying at that rate of increase.

Questions I have:

1) Is this legit, I will pay nothing upfront and just pay the price per month for the leased equipment + any power that I buy?

2) What about low sunlight days in the winter / rain days. Is there a way to see how efficient the sunlight is in my area?

3) What if the roof is COVERED in snow for 2-3 weeks.

If there is anything else major I am missing

Thanks,
Drew

[J.P.M.]

Solar is a choice. Most folks, being ignorant of solar, are prime candidates for (and to use a technical term only insiders to the business use), getting screwed.

To avoid that unfortunate state of affairs, some smart(er) folks inform themselves about how energy is used in their home/business, what that use costs, and how to reduce that cost, and then, get savvy about how residential solar works, what types of equipment are available and ways to acquire it through purchase, lease or other means. The goal is to save money by reducing electric bills, not solar for its own sake.

I'd respectfully suggest spending $25 or so, and buying/reading a book on residential energy conservation and solar energy. Many are available. An older version of "Solar For Dummies" is online, free for download. It's a bit dated, but still mostly good info. The price and availability are good.

Leasing can work for some folks, but there are those who see it as a trap, or at least not long run in their, or most anyone's, best self interest. I'd encourage you to get all sides of the issue.

FWIW: I think they are a rip off and mostly a bill of goods, sold to folks who don't know any better and are afflicted with shortsightedness and the nothing down syndrome, but opinions vary and it's a free country. Free to make uninformed poor decisions as good ones.

Take what you want of the above. scrap the rest.

[tatumjonj]

There's no such thing as a free lunch. You might not be able to find the "cost", but it's there somewhere if you look hard enough.

[mpkelley20]

Tons of people in my town use leases from Solar City. They are all happy with it. Plus, the no money down was a big incentive for them. However, had they done a little bit of research, they would find that there are zero down loans you can get on purchasing a system and then you get the federal and state tax credits (not the solar company). If you have decent credit to qualify for a loan, or have money to put down, buying the system is a much better choice for the long run. You can save much more (usually) buying the system. When you lease, the short term benefits might look better but long haul, it will be more expensive. There is also the upgradeability of a leased system vs buying and a million other things. Do your homework and you will find what works best for your situation. For me, I spent well over a year and had it narrowed down to two choices but now I am doing a ton more research after finding this forum. Great place here!

FWIW, Solar City is a public company and has been in business for a long time. While it is not a scam, they don't do a great job of explaining how they pocket the tax incentives that would notmally go to you if you were purchasing over leasing. I have been talking to them about buying a system from them as they are getting into that side of the business now and their pricing is coming in at rater insanely high numbers compared to other companies who use better panels. My theory is that they don't want me to purchase but rather lease as they won't make as much money off me on a sale. They are "checking" on their pricing to see if they can get it somewhere between 3.50 to 4.00 per watt. They are currently at 5.50 which is way higher than quotes I got on Sunpower panels.

[tatumjonj]

To echo what the last poster said, when I received my quotes, the Solar City quote was in the $5.50/watt neighborhood and they acted as though the only way to go was to lease. I had indicated before they ever stepped foot in my door that I wasn't even going to consider leasing. The kid they sent out to give me a quote was less knowledgeable about solar than I was and didn't even know how to proceed without giving me a quote for leasing. That's definitely their money maker.

[J.P.M.]

To my experience, the more informed folks get and the more objective they are about their situation, the lower the probability is that they will lease.

[bobfromnj]

Don't use Solar City

Hello,

I live in Connecticut and like many others I am looking into renewable energy. Having zero knowledge of solar I called Solar City since I have been seeing there logo and trucks all over the place.

My impression was, I would have to pay and upfront cost for the equipment / install and make my money back over the years. Turns out they are offering me everything (site survey, equipment, install and warranty) at no up front cost at all. I will "lease" the equipment for 20 years at $169ish per month. Currently my bills goes from $220 to close to $400 in the summertime.

If I use more power then I produce then I buy it from the power company for .13kWh. Currently I am paying .22kWh and When I asked they said the price would not increase more then 2.9% per year and it would take me 20 years to pay what I am currently paying at that rate of increase.

Questions I have:

1) Is this legit, I will pay nothing upfront and just pay the price per month for the leased equipment + any power that I buy?

2) What about low sunlight days in the winter / rain days. Is there a way to see how efficient the sunlight is in my area?

3) What if the roof is COVERED in snow for 2-3 weeks.

If there is anything else major I am missing

Thanks,
Drew

We have had many people in my community use Solar City and its like there trucks are here every week repairing things. All of there installs are NOT professionally done. Be glad to send you pictures, if you PM me. Besides you at least want to get 3 estimates or more. Solar City is also known for there high pressure sales people and little tiny fine print in there contracts.
Bob

[bradykp]

I think it's easy to go with Solar City or one of their major competitors because they paint it as no hassle. For some people - that may be the right choice. Solar City owns the panels, their using your house to generate electricity and then sell that electricity to you. They size the systems so you likely will still be buying from the utility (at least that seems to be their approach in NJ), and they have an incentive to keep it up and running because if the panel isn't producing, they're not getting paid by you, and your utility is instead. So - it's attractive to people with the no money down and no worrying about maintenance.

As soon as i started doing research, I realized how bad a deal they are really. i'm saving a few pennies vs my utility and i'm getting mostly solar electricity, so I feel good - but i'm not getting any of the financial benefits. Once it dawned on me that I could get a HELOC, I ran away from quotes on the purchase plans like Solar City and started getting quotes on buying. If you have access to loans, it's a no brainer. I can't wrap my head around how any informed consumer chooses a purchase plan like Solar City - but, i'm sure it's a convenience factor and a desire to go solar.

[bobfromnj]

Purchase if you can

I think it's easy to go with Solar City or one of their major competitors because they paint it as no hassle. For some people - that may be the right choice. Solar City owns the panels, their using your house to generate electricity and then sell that electricity to you. They size the systems so you likely will still be buying from the utility (at least that seems to be their approach in NJ), and they have an incentive to keep it up and running because if the panel isn't producing, they're not getting paid by you, and your utility is instead. So - it's attractive to people with the no money down and no worrying about maintenance.

As soon as i started doing research, I realized how bad a deal they are really. i'm saving a few pennies vs my utility and i'm getting mostly solar electricity, so I feel good - but i'm not getting any of the financial benefits. Once it dawned on me that I could get a HELOC, I ran away from quotes on the purchase plans like Solar City and started getting quotes on buying. If you have access to loans, it's a no brainer. I can't wrap my head around how any informed consumer chooses a purchase plan like Solar City - but, i'm sure it's a convenience factor and a desire to go solar.

You are 100% correct. When we were getting all the quotes years ago I just felt I wanted my bill to be zero. Yes, it is a out lay of money but I looked at it as an investment. We are very lucky to have SRECS in NJ. The bottom line is that after 3 and a half years, between the SRECS and having no electric bill we have gotten back 50% of our original outlay. Not bad.
Bob

[GLock27922]

Thank you all for the information.

Right now I don't want to take out a loan to buy the equipment but I need the break in the electrical bill monthly. (This month will be over $400) I like having to pay nothing upfront at all even if I pay more over the 20 years. My cost per month for the "Pay to own" is $162 plus all the taxes and other BS charges.

I know if I go with Solar City I will "Pay To Own" over 20years or do a buy out after 5 years. The rebates are applied to the total cost of the system so if / when I do buy the system I see I will be getting that discount. Buying upfront is no something I can do right now

I do like having the warranty for 20 years if I "Pay To Own" this way if anything goes wrong they have to come out and take care of service and equipment at no cost to me. Another thing I like is if I start using more power they come back out and add to my system at no cost to me. I will be adding to my "Pay to Own $" but I have the option which is nice.

Does anyone know how much power I can "Bank" with the power company before they cap off? I would like to "bank" enough to get me through the bad snow season.

I would love more feedback and I like honesty.

Anyone from the NE that has solar I am looking to hear about the Snow issues.

Thanks,
Drew

[J.P.M.]

Thank you all for the information.

Right now I don't want to take out a loan to buy the equipment but I need the break in the electrical bill monthly. (This month will be over $400) I like having to pay nothing upfront at all even if I pay more over the 20 years. My cost per month for the "Pay to own" is $162 plus all the taxes and other BS charges.

I know if I go with Solar City I will "Pay To Own" over 20years or do a buy out after 5 years. The rebates are applied to the total cost of the system so if / when I do buy the system I see I will be getting that discount. Buying upfront is no something I can do right now

I do like having the warranty for 20 years if I "Pay To Own" this way if anything goes wrong they have to come out and take care of service and equipment at no cost to me. Another thing I like is if I start using more power they come back out and add to my system at no cost to me. I will be adding to my "Pay to Own $" but I have the option which is nice.

Does anyone know how much power I can "Bank" with the power company before they cap off? I would like to "bank" enough to get me through the bad snow season.

I would love more feedback and I like honesty.

Anyone from the NE that has solar I am looking to hear about the Snow issues.

Thanks,
Drew

If you want feedback and you like honesty: Get serious about use reduction and conservation. Also, if SolarCity is still your choice, read, REALLY, REALLY READ the contract before you sign it, and when you do read it, do so as if you were Elon Musk and from his perspective.

Good luck.

[mpkelley20]

Not sure what the "pay to own" is from Solar city. From how I understand it you either do a lease through them (or power purchase agreement) which is for 20 years or you do an outright purchase. The lease ends in 20 years and you either have them take down the panels, buy it from them or redo the lease. If you lease, you do not get any federal tax credits or state credits. Those go to Solar City. If you buy it from Solar city sometime after the lease, I don't think those rebates are paid back to you. Can't double dip the federal government! If solar city is somehow doing a buy to own program where you do get the tax credits, that is no different than doing a zero down financing on a straight out purchase. The purchase will be way cheaper compared to Solar City's option.

[bradykp]

i realize you don't want to have out of pocket costs. if you can't, you can't. but really look at the deal with solar city. i was shocked at how bad a deal it really is. and there's no way you're going to buy their panels after 20 years. i'm confident of that.

[Tommygun45]

Need more details

I have just started looking into this heavily and it is shocking. I believe CT has roughly the same program as MA. You need to figure out how much electricity you use per year. Given what you say your bills are I'd guess around 8000 killowatt hours? You can find this information on your bill somewhere.

Your demand will determine the size your system needs to be. For instance if you demand on average 8000 kwhs a year, you need a system that will provide that much electricity to effectively make you 100% non-dependent on your utility provider. Then its just basic math. Different manufacturers of solar panels produce different kinds, but basically each panel has a rating. Say, 280w, or 300w. This is how many watts they will produce in a year, essentially. If you get 20 300w panels you will produce 6000 kwhrs per year. If you need 8000 kwhrs you would obviously need more panels, say 27, which will get you 8100 rated kwhs. Also the angle of your roof is very important, it needs to face South.

Anyways, lets say you install a system that is rated for 8100 kwhrs. If your roof is decent you can probably churn out 9000 kwhrs in a year. In MA I can sell energy to the utility company. For every 1000 kwhs I produce they cut me a check for somewhere between $280 and $360. That means, if the system is similar in CT which I think it is, you will be EARNING $280*9, or $2520 per year. Now it decreases a little bit over time, but quick, do the math. This is called the SREC system, or maybe ZREC in Ct.

You say you can't take out a loan, but believe me, you can. These SRECs will more than pay for your loan. Between not paying your utility company, saving you what, 2500? a year, and getting paid by your utility company, you will be breaking even in year 4 or 5, and then you will be actually earning and saving tens of thousands of dollars over the lifetime of YOUR panels. Why do you think Solar City is growing so rapidly? Because they are making a killing on people who choose not to educate themselves on these fairly basic mathematical concepts. Oh well. Rich people are rich for a reason.

And breaking even in year 4 or 5 doesn't mean what you think it means. You will be saving and making money monthly in your first month, right after you sign your loan.

Do your homework. I did and its remarkable.

[J.P.M.]

I have just started looking into this heavily and it is shocking. I believe CT has roughly the same program as MA. You need to figure out how much electricity you use per year. Given what you say your bills are I'd guess around 8000 killowatt hours? You can find this information on your bill somewhere.

Your demand will determine the size your system needs to be. For instance if you demand on average 8000 kwhs a year, you need a system that will provide that much electricity to effectively make you 100% non-dependent on your utility provider. Then its just basic math. Different manufacturers of solar panels produce different kinds, but basically each panel has a rating. Say, 280w, or 300w. This is how many watts they will produce in a year, essentially. If you get 20 300w panels you will produce 6000 kwhrs per year. If you need 8000 kwhrs you would obviously need more panels, say 27, which will get you 8100 rated kwhs. Also the angle of your roof is very important, it needs to face South.

Anyways, lets say you install a system that is rated for 8100 kwhrs. If your roof is decent you can probably churn out 9000 kwhrs in a year. In MA I can sell energy to the utility company. For every 1000 kwhs I produce they cut me a check for somewhere between $280 and $360. That means, if the system is similar in CT which I think it is, you will be EARNING $280*9, or $2520 per year. Now it decreases a little bit over time, but quick, do the math. This is called the SREC system, or maybe ZREC in Ct.

You say you can't take out a loan, but believe me, you can. These SRECs will more than pay for your loan. Between not paying your utility company, saving you what, 2500? a year, and getting paid by your utility company, you will be breaking even in year 4 or 5, and then you will be actually earning and saving tens of thousands of dollars over the lifetime of YOUR panels. Why do you think Solar City is growing so rapidly? Because they are making a killing on people who choose not to educate themselves on these fairly basic mathematical concepts. Oh well. Rich people are rich for a reason.

And breaking even in year 4 or 5 doesn't mean what you think it means. You will be saving and making money monthly in your first month, right after you sign your loan.

Do your homework. I did and its remarkable.

Your description of panel rating is incorrect. A 300 Watt panel will produce 300 Watts when under direct irradiance of 1,000 Watts/m^2 and the panel is at a temp. of 25 deg. C. That's in a lab or on a production line. Under actual operating conditions, the output will most likely be less than that and variable form minute to minute, depending on sunshine level and other weather variables.

Run PVWatts for an estimate of long term output. You'll probably find that a 6Kw system will produce a fair amount more than 6,000 kWh/yr. with decent orientation and low shading.

Also, 100% offset of an electric bill may not be the most cost effective way to go, depending on billing and tariffs in effect, SREC' levels, etc.