Off grid partially mostly used for power outage usage. Why won't it pay for itself??

[lkruper]

Wel in the USa you can buy a Kwh for 12 cents. That same battery you ar eusing has a calander life of about 2 years. So if you use it only for emergency say once a week that Kwh cost jumps to $3.50/Kwh. A generator and gas is much less expensive and does not have a low demand factor. With a battery you cannot cook or cool/heat your home or cook. Genny no problem.

This is why I am spending... looks like about ... $950 for the privilege of using my 2kW inverter generator with a transfer switch at my cabin. If I go to phase II, I will add some batteries, and inverter and charger so that I can have some quiet at night instead of running the generator 24X7. If I get to phase III I will add solar panels to charge the batteries just for fun. While I am having fun I may consider running some of my load from the solar panels to get experience. If I do that, I will be in the same boat as Stix. But I may just stay with the generator and leave it at that. I cannot justify more than phase I financially.

[Stix]

Wel in the USa you can buy a Kwh for 12 cents. That same battery you ar eusing has a calander life of about 2 years. So if you use it only for emergency say once a week that Kwh cost jumps to $3.50/Kwh. A generator and gas is much less expensive and does not have a low demand factor. With a battery you cannot cook or cool/heat your home or cook. Genny no problem.

I think you missed where we heat with wood and cook on wood stove or BBQ Cooling is not a requirement like heat and we have natural springs for water anytime of year. We use for emergency may 4 times a year long stretches 2 day and 6 times for 6 hours or less. We use it all the time during the day and the power from DTE goes to 0.0 KWH when nobody is home. We use the grid at night since the power requirement is nothing and it is dirt cheap. Yet the batteries always get to 100% no less than 85% but we do cycle them down at times to exercise them. I posted the pics of energy graph since installed on page 1. Generator and gas would cost me more especially when I am not home and the wife would have to deal with it. This way she flips 8 switches and house is good to go. Piece of mind in pretty priceless.

[Sunking]

I think you missed where we heat with wood and cook on wood stove or BBQ Cooling is not a requirement like heat and we have natural springs for water anytime of year. We use for emergency may 4 times a year long stretches 2 day and 6 times for 6 hours or less. We use it all the time during the day and the power from DTE goes to 0.0 KWH when nobody is home. I posted the pics of energy graph since installed on page 1. Generator and gas would cost me more especially when I am not home and the wife would have to deal with it. This way she flips 8 switches and house is good to go. Piece of mind in pretty priceless.

I think you missed anything you take off the grid cost you 5 times more than buying it. 20 to 100 times more for emergency vs $1 with a genny with fuel and no limitations on demand so you can stay cool and live in luxury vs suffering on solar.

[Stix]

I think you missed anything you take off the grid cost you 5 times more than buying it. 20 to 100 times more for emergency vs $1 with a genny with fuel and no limitations on demand so you can stay cool and live in luxury vs suffering on solar.

Looks alot cheaper on my bill not sure what you're talking about and we enjoy the way we live. We don't suffer at all. We can run the A/C and the bill is still cheaper. With out solar average bill 250 as you can see in graph. With solar and changes to compressors lights and usage even with A/C running average $160. Batteries still charge 100% by end of day when we switch back to grid.

[lkruper]

Looks alot cheaper on my bill not sure what you're talking about and we enjoy the way we live. We don't suffer at all. We can run the A/C and the bill is still cheaper. With out solar average bill 250 as you can see in graph. With solar and changes to compressors lights and usage even with A/C running average $160. Batteries still charge 100% by end of day when we switch back to grid.

You need to add $50 per month back into the monthly outlay to pro-rate your battery cost. The other $40 savings, I presume, is your conservation.

To play devil's advocate, if you had a generator and an automatic transfer switch, your wife would not have to do anything if the power went out

[Stix]

You need to add $50 per month back into the monthly outlay to pro-rate your battery cost. The other $40 savings, I presume, is your conservation.

To play devil's advocate, if you had a generator and an automatic transfer switch, your wife would not have to do anything if the power went out

Ahh but the cost would be more than I paid for solar and it would need maintenance/ break down far more than batteries so add in maintenance and repair costs to your equation. I could also make a transfer switch so solar automatically came on if power went out with a SPDT switch for about 5 bucks Your math I would still be $30 or so ahead a month Add in oil change and other maintenance that should be done on generators as we install those aswell you're falling further behind. Most do not take care of generators the way they should just like batteries shortening the life span till replacement.

[Sunking]

Looks alot cheaper on my bill not sure what you're talking about and we enjoy the way we live. We don't suffer at all. We can run the A/C and the bill is still cheaper. With out solar average bill 250 as you can see in graph. With solar and changes to compressors lights and usage even with A/C running average $160. Batteries still charge 100% by end of day when we switch back to grid.

500 watts of panels only makes for 20-cents per day if grid tied. 5-cents if off battery. Simple math a 5th grader can understand.

[Stix]

500 watts of panels only makes for 20-cents per day if grid tied. 5-cents if off battery. Simple math a 5th grader can understand.

Maybe if ya could read you would do better. C-O-N-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-O-N........ Simple enough for ya. I spelled it all out you're just picking pieces of all the posts made. Read it all. You must be a south pole elf. Proof is in the graphs provided. on page one. Easy to see.

[lkruper]

Ahh but the cost would be more than I paid for solar and it would need maintenance/ break down far more than batteries so add in maintenance and repair costs to your equation. I could also make a transfer switch so solar automatically came on if power went out with a SPDT switch for about 5 bucks Your math I would still be $30 or so ahead a month Add in oil change and other maintenance that should be done on generators as we install those aswell you're falling further behind. Most do not take care of generators the way they should just like batteries shortening the life span till replacement.

Not sure about that. I have a dinky generator, a Smarter Tools inverter generator 1600/2000 w pure sine wave. I got it at Costco for about the cost of your batteries. I will be spending $950 to install a manual transfer switch, more than half goes to the electrician and county for inspection.

An automatic transfer switch would add a few hundred more dollars, but that does not make sense for me.

So for under $2000 you could power what you have completely automated. Sounds like you do your own installs so for you that is more like $1500. How much will you have invested in your panels, inverters, charge controllers and batteries by the time you are done?

[Stix]

Not sure about that. I have a dinky generator, a Smarter Tools inverter generator 1600/2000 w pure sine wave. I got it at Costco for about the cost of your batteries. I will be spending $950 to install a manual transfer switch, more than half goes to the electrician and county for inspection.

An automatic transfer switch would add a few hundred more dollars, but that does not make sense for me.

So for under $2000 you could power what you have completely automated. Sounds like you do your own installs so for you that is more like $1500. How much will you have invested in your panels, inverters, charge controllers and batteries by the time you are done?

$2200 total. As far as transfer switches and electrical I have all that from what I do for a living. I am just doing what Sunking is doing. When I started this solar project I thought it would be a money pit. It is but no more than any other thing we do in life. Cars/hobbies/eating out/trips/frivilous spending just plain wasting money. It is not as bad as most make it to be. If you sit there and look at it from a money view and not as a backup power source that can help lower bills at peak times when sun is shining bright and power to spare then your doing it wrong. I do this as a hobby and hobbies can cost money but there is a payback and some great knowledge and conservation practices learned in the process.

I made this post for that reason. People look at it as black and white. There is a great amount learned doing solar and it teaches ya alot. Sure a generator works and is simple. So is solar. As a total off grid.... well no. To help during peak times and when power goes out well heck ya. I do have an advantage through what I do for a living and can change alot over to DC low amp energy saving equipment that will allow me to run during the day for nothing and at night for cheap most can't and would cost a fortune to switch. I can do all the changes to any refrigeration system at cost or from used equipment. Some on this board are harsh cough sunking cough He is a straight up black and white by the numbers guy. Very knowledgeable don't get me wrong. But has the tendency to push some away from solar. Possibly make them feel ignorant..... Not stupid mind you.... just not knowing.

I have read this forum for some time and tossed the idea of making solar a hobby. Now I have and you're stuck with me

[lkruper]

$2200 total. As far as transfer switches and electrical I have all that from what I do for a living. I am just doing what Sunking is doing. When I started this solar project I thought it would be a money pit. It is but no more than any other thing we do in life. Cars/hobbies/eating out/trips/frivilous spending just plain wasting money. It is not as bad as most make it to be. If you sit there and look at it from a money view and not as a backup power source that can help lower bills at peak times when sun is shining bright and power to spare then your doing it wrong. I do this as a hobby and hobbies can cost money but there is a payback and some great knowledge and conservation practices learned in the process.

I made this post for that reason. People look at it as black and white. There is a great amount learned doing solar and it teaches ya alot. Sure a generator works and is simple. So is solar. As a total off grid.... well no. To help during peak times and when power goes out well heck ya. I do have an advantage through what I do for a living and can change alot over to DC low amp energy saving equipment that will allow me to run during the day for nothing and at night for cheap most can't and would cost a fortune to switch. I can do all the changes to any refrigeration system at cost or from used equipment. Some on this board are harsh cough sunking cough He is a straight up black and white by the numbers guy. Very knowledgeable don't get me wrong. But has the tendency to push some away from solar. Possibly make them feel ignorant..... Not stupid mind you.... just not knowing.

I have read this forum for some time and tossed the idea of making solar a hobby. Now I have and you're stuck with me

You are way ahead of me. I am playing with small 9ah agm batteries, 15 w solar panels and cheap harbor freight inverters to learn. My first real investment is the generator and transfer switch. I don't think it will be my last but I tend to over-analyze things before I do them.

[Stix]

You are way ahead of me. I am playing with small 9ah agm batteries, 15 w solar panels and cheap harbor freight inverters to learn. My first real investment is the generator and transfer switch. I don't think it will be my last but I tend to over-analyze things before I do them.

Sometimes that is for the best to over analyze. Makes your head hurt but can be for the best lol Don't think I don't. I make my living on doing what people say..... mostly engineers.....can't be done. To many times I have heard that can't work and had to sign waivers stating we will change it out if it does not work. Well we have not had to change one out yet and save on average in commercial buildings 40%. Sometimes you have to take what is in the books and some common sense.... maybe some luck and make it work.

[Bala]

[QUOTE=Stix;160747]I think you missed where we heat with wood and cook on wood stove or BBQ Cooling is not a requirement like heat and we have natural springs for water anytime of year.

We use for emergency may 4 times a year long stretches 2 day

and 6 times for 6 hours or less. We use it all the time during the day and the power from DTE goes to 0.0 KWH when nobody is home. We use the grid at night since the power requirement is nothing and it is dirt cheap. Yet the batteries always get to 100% no less than 85% but we do cycle them down at times to exercise them. I posted the pics of energy graph since installed on page 1. Generator and gas would cost me more especially when I am not home and the wife would have to deal with it. This way she flips 8 switches and house is good to go. Piece of mind in pretty priceless.[/QUOTE

First off you said is was for back up then a hobby?

IMO the savings you have made in usage need to be factored in your cost as they could have been made anyway, as has been suggested.

But if it is most importantly for backup what are you going if it is raining or heavy overcast when your grid is down and you a relying on your solar for 2 days?

I have off grid only and I have a back up genset for it. So really you still need a back up genset for your back up solar system.

[Stix]

Good morning Bala, (For Me anyway just seen where you are from :P)

Well you can do it as a project and make learning about it more a hobby can't ya? Also We did start to figure in the conservation savings. Remember I get things used or at cost and can sell what I take out so it it pretty even. Of course I come out a little in the red but can be made up for. I never said I did not have a generator for the small important stuff if needed. I did not want to spend alot on a whole house generator that I would have to use on diesel. I will find out how it goes when the time comes. If that scenario plays out. Which in all likelihood you are correct and it will happen as the sun does not always shine days on end.

I am just curious as why it is impossible to break even or come out a little ahead. Trying to do it in a fun way. There is nothing to throwing up a system and making it work. Harder to do it perfect the first time and get everything right. Which I did not and would change a few things but that will have to wait.

I just can't wrap my head around why with adding energy savings light compressors and pumps using solar during the day when rates are higher and switching to grid a few hours later when cheaper why you should not be able at some point to come out ahead. Is it just the batteries that are the downfall of the system because of replacement. The stories that batteries can last 8 years if well maintained are garbage? Like I said I do not believe all I hear and read. Hell I even have said things I thought I was correct on only to be proven wrong and thats ok. As long as I take away from it the knowledge I am all the better for it.

We are about 15 cents a KW here at peak times and about 10 in the off peak times. So I have the solar on during peak hours

[lkruper]

...at some point to come out ahead. Is it just the batteries that are the downfall of the system because of replacement. The stories that batteries can last 8 years if well maintained are garbage? Like I said I do not believe all I hear and read. ...

I don't know who made the Sam's club batteries but this site (http://www.powerstridebattery.com/si...batteries.html) says these types of batteries have 225 cycles at 80% DOD. If someone was using these in an RV where they are hooked up to shore power every day and not boon docking, or using them strictly as backup batteries, stored at a low temperature they will last longer... so long as equipment does not fail.