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  • The Future of Net Metering???

    http://www.ect.coop/power-supply/ren...et-model/80907

    Interesting read....

  • #2
    Originally posted by Alisobob View Post
    All electric companies are trying to get NET METERING LAWS repelled as it is not fair to the utilities. Utilities are not in biz to give away products and services. They pass those cost to customers in the form of a hidden tax (artificially inflate electric rates) . The public especially the poor and middle class are sick and tired paying welfare to people who do not need it. Utilities do not need or want the electricity.
    MSEE, PE

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Alisobob View Post
      It's hard to judge the total net metering law in the way it effects Rural Electric Coops. They do not usually generate any power, they buy wholesale and sell retail, so anything they pay out comes off their bottom line. In my state they are exempt from net metering, but they will bank power. I still pay my membership fee, but the banking is free, so I am the only one they lose a profit on. There only 6 systems in a 4 county area they serve.

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      • #4
        Maybe it is the way the POCO's charge people for electricity. They have bundled all the cost/kWh under a "generation" label which also includes a lot of other costs for the POCO. That make people to believe they should get back the same $/kWh for their generation that the POCO is charging them.

        It should be more detailed (or complicated) billing by listing the true cost of of power which includes "generation" along with; transportation, grid maintenance, fuel, environmental, etc. All these are part of what it costs the POCO to provide power to the people and generation is only a part. Maybe people would better understand that "Net metering" will only reimburse them for the "generation" part of their bill but not all the costs.

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        • #5
          Seems to me, as long as we burn coal & nat gas to make electricity, there is a case
          for PV solar. If all nuke, not so much.

          The cost of net metering is not obvious to me. The Utilities tend to totally exaggerate
          the aspects of each rate feature. Should there be a fee for net metering, maybe, but
          what the PoCo will ask will be at least 10 times what it really costs them.

          Just looking at my situation a couple decades ago. I would often come home and note,
          the electric meter disc was completely stationary. My consumption was very low, the
          total bill might be $19. Much of that was for various fees related to just being connected,
          zero consumption would not have been a lot less. NO ONE suggested that I was bad for
          the PoCo.

          Now suppose that same setup added a big influx of my PV net metering energy. I'd be
          running the neighbors air conditioning down the block. Later I take back the energy to
          run my own heat pump at night or another season. The PoCo delivers exactly the same
          energy as before, only the time they deliver it changes. I might argue that I am helping
          the PoCo meet peak demands, so I am actually saving them money. Instead, they look
          for a way to collect for the energy they didn't manage to sell to me.

          The Utilities of late have been promoting conservation; that might just be good PR. In
          the mean time, more and larger fixed "FEES" keep showing up on the bill, to easily
          cancel any conservation savings. The several $ gas monthly connect fee a couple
          decades ago suddenly rose to $7. Now its $336 a year if I buy no gas at all, which
          would be the case for many months. That is what convinced me to connect to the
          minimum number of utilities, ignore the new gas line here, and try PV solar. Bruce Roe

          Comment


          • #6
            Let's be fair.

            Since when was "fairness" the issue? Net metering is of course an unfair inducement to help encourage the use of solar energy and has been a big factor in building a substantial solar industry. It is a good thing to help society transition to a better energy source that is clean and inexhaustible. Currently, utilities receive the unfair, monopolized benefit of not having to pay the environmental and health costs of burning coal (clearly a controversial topic) the health costs alone according to a Harvard Medical school study are on the order of $1000/person/year. Society makes decisions as to how to best provide its needed resources like electric power. In the past, we incentivized burning dirty, unrenewable fuels because cheap, plentiful energy was conducive to a strong economy and now we are transitioning to promoting clean, renewable sources. It is not about fairness.
            You generally get what you pay for. Do you always buy the cheapest products? Usually the best value is found with a product or service that gives you the most value for the least cost. Utilities are under a lot of pressure from their ratepayers to keep costs down and they generally do that by investing in the cheapest source of energy they can - as the poor ratepayer doesn't care. Well, whose paying the health costs of those decisions? - those same sick and tired people downwind of the coal plants. (hey - and how do you like being downwind and downstream of Fukashima?)
            Solar, while not the cheapest energy, is rapidly becoming the best valued energy.
            BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

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            • #7
              Originally posted by solarix View Post
              Since when was "fairness" the issue?
              If we're aiming for 50% of electricity being from solar by 2030, we'd better make sure our energy policy doesn't unfairly burden consumers or industry, or they may rebel against it.

              Fairness is in the eye of the beholder. Greater unbundling, transparency, and simplicity, so everybody can understand exactly what their energy bill goes to, might help.

              I just looked at my LADWP bills. The minimum charge is $10/month, which seems fair to me. Once net metering goes away, and is replaced with a wholesale feed-in tariff, a minimum charge won't seem as fair.

              In California, a recent ballot initiative and court ruling may lead to greater transparency in tiered rate structures; they'll have to say what the higher rates in the upper tiers are used for.

              I love net metering, but it seems too good to be fair... in other situations in real life, there's *always* a difference between wholesale and retail prices, and it's eerie that we get credited retail prices for what we feed into the grid.

              Come to think of it, having a flat price per kwh for what we buy from the grid doesn't seem quite fair, since true cost surely varies during the day (power from peaker plants can be more expensive than power from baseline plants, and a flood of solar can even make the wholesale price of power go negative at some parts of the day). So to really be fair, I think we'd need smart meters that monitor energy use on a much finer timescale than in olden days.

              Comment


              • #8
                Very interesting. Thanks.

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                • #9
                  Simple Question

                  Here is my question: If the Utilities are so worried about net metering which allows daytime producers to get cheap nighttime rates, why do they continue to offer time-of-use rates?

                  If there is an excess of night power to the extent they are greatly discounting it, and hiking the cost of daytime power - you would think that the Utilities would love solar as it helps them with this imbalance. I would think that before attacking net-metering, they would get rid of time-of-use rates and make solar people just pay more for their night time power. My solar system (like many) is cost-effectively designed to produce about all of my daytime needs, but continue to use cheap utility power at night. Doesn't pay to put in expensive solar when the night rate is less than 6 cents/kwh.

                  My answer to the future of utility rates, is to make the rates accurately reflect the cost of production (including maybe the intangible costs) and let the chips fall where they may. Instead we have non-market based decisions implemented to achieve perceived goals like: Keeping prices low for the low-end ratepayer, encouraging certain technologies or energy sources, monopolies instead of competition, central vs distributed generation, etc.

                  Here in Arizona, there is a new rate plan which though not available in most areas yet, is to my thinking pretty realistic.
                  Called the super-peak, it has nice low rates all the time except for in the 3 summer months, during weekdays, from 3 to 6pm when all the A/C is cranking, the rate goes to a whopping 45 cents/kwh. The system is critically stressed during this time, it is when the failures have happened in the past, and solar isn't that much help late in the afternoon. In other words, late afternoon capacity is expensive to provide and it ought to be priced as such.
                  I can just hear the howls now about "What do you mean I can't run my A/C? - You're taking advantage of us...."
                  BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Super-peak example:

                    https://www.aps.com/en/residential/a...uper-peak.aspx

                    -- snip --
                    off-peak hours are weekdays from 7 pm to noon and all day Saturday and Sunday, as well as 6 major holidays
                    on-peak hours noon – 7 pm weekdays are billed at a higher rate
                    super-peak hours (3-6 pm weekdays during June – August) are billed at the most expensive cost per kWh

                    november-april billing cycles $/kWh
                    on-peak kWh $0.19847
                    off-peak kWh $0.05517​
                    may, september & october billing cycles
                    on-peak kWh $0.24477
                    off-peak kWh $0.05517​
                    june-august billing cycles
                    on-peak kWh $0.24477​
                    super-peak kWh $0.46517​
                    off-peak kWh $0.05517​
                    -- snip --

                    That rate sounds like it's begging people to poinr their panels west and/or install batteries!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ya, I've seen laws proposed directing people to face their solar arrays toward the southwest, but my point is make the pricing an open market, and if afternoon power is what is so expensive for the utility and prices it accordingly, then people will figure out pretty quick to adjust their solar accordingly. Apparently night power is really cheap for the utilities, cause they are practically giving it away. And then they complain about solar people giving the grid valuable daytime power in exchange for cheap nighttime power! Net metering sure is unfair...
                      BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

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                      • #12
                        My crystal ball predicts a slow move towards realtime pricing and demand management. Once all meters and appliances are connected to the internet, it'll be hard to resist.

                        It also predicts a field day for hackers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DanKegel View Post
                          My crystal ball predicts a slow move towards realtime pricing and demand management. Once all meters and appliances are connected to the internet, it'll be hard to resist.

                          It also predicts a field day for hackers.
                          Now that is a concern of mine.

                          Bad enough there is a high potential of damage to our power distribution network through hacking but if all of our homes appliances could be controlled remotely by someone else think of the disruption that might happen.

                          It is already bad enough in some households (like mine) when the two spouses have different ideas of where to set the thermostat or leave the tv on. Image your neighbor playing with your lights and AC system.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by solarix View Post
                            Ya, I've seen laws proposed directing people to face their solar arrays toward the southwest, but my point is make the pricing an open market, and if afternoon power is what is so expensive for the utility and prices it accordingly, then people will figure out pretty quick to adjust their solar accordingly. Apparently night power is really cheap for the utilities, cause they are practically giving it away. And then they complain about solar people giving the grid valuable daytime power in exchange for cheap nighttime power! Net metering sure is unfair...
                            I'm on APS's EPR-6 Time Advantage Plan with summer peak rate of $0.24477/kWh from noon to 7pm. YTD I have banked about 1,800 kWh peak credit. Last summer I had banked about 600 kWh which I used all of by October. Over the last year, I added a solar water heater, substantial LED lighting, and installed more efficient pumps. I estimate that by year end I will have 1,200 kWh credit remaining which APS will pay $0.02943/kWh or $35.32.

                            APS will sell my 1,200 excess peak kWh's to my neighbor for $0.24477/kWh for a profit of (1,200 X ($0.24477 - $0.02943)) = $258.41.

                            Assuming that I shift my usage so that I consume these excess peak kWh's and use less off peak, I will save the difference between the off peak rate of $0.06618 and the buy back rate of $0.02943 or $0.03675 x 1,200 = $44.10.

                            Given that I can pre-cool the house before noon at off peak rates, I will likely change the air conditioner schedule so that it starts at 6 pm instead of 7 pm which is the worst time to add load to the grid. By not offering adequate compensation for excess peak production, APS's rate structure will have the perverse effect of increasing late afternoon peak loads.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              thank you 38kw - I rest my case.
                              APS and the Utilities in general should be thankful to us solar people - not trying to tax us. If not for solar and wind making up the majority of new electrical growth, Utilities would have had to be constructing new generation plants and driving up the utility rates to pay for it.
                              BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

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