new 4Kwp system - components debate (Sunpower, SolarWorld or PhonoSolar??)

[noammo]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum and got the impression this is definitely the right place to get my answers.. looking forward!

Background:
I'm planning on installing a 4Kwp system in Israel (just south of Tel-Aviv).
We have governmental incentives for systems up to ~4Kwp on private houses: every Kw I produce, pays me (net) almost 54 cents (USD).
The expected yearly production here is 1650 watts per every installed Kwp (4*1650 for me). The weather is mostly sunny year round but also hot (similar to California in the hot places).
In total, I expect to get a yearly refund of 3560 USD.

Details:
I decided which company (installer) I'm interested in working with and got 3 quotes from them, but I just can't decide..
My alternatives include the following main items:
1. 18 Mono Sunpower225 modules with a Mastervolt (transformer equipped becase of the modules) IG Plus 50 Inverter + monitoring system. price: approx 27K US$
2. 18 Poly SolarWorld SW220poly modules with an SMA 4000 or 5000TL (transformerless) inverter + SMA Webbox monitoring system. price: approx 26.1K US$
3. 22 Mono 190 OR 18 Mono 240 PhonoSolar (chinese mad) modules, with an SMA 4000 or 5000TL (transformerless) inverter + SMA Webbox monitoring system. price: approx 21.5K US$

Question:
Which alternative should I choose? and why?

Thanks in advance, noam

[greenHouse]

System #2.

The SMA inverters are rock solid and there are still some problems with Chinese panels. Let someone else deal with their problems, not you.

[ChrisPSolar]

Hi Noam, you're in the right place. There will be many more questions and you can get your answers here!

This is an easy choice for me. Sunpower is a great brand and will be here 25 years from now when your panels finally start fading. SolarWorld's aren't bad, but the price difference is negligible so that makes that comparison easy.

The price is attractive on the Phonosolar panels but honestly I have never heard of that brand and wouldn't trust it. These new Chinese brands pop up every other day. They might be good, but what happens in 5 years when your panels suddenly start giving lower wattage? Odds are Phono will be a memory and you'll be stuck with shoddy panels.

The important thing to remember with solar is that it is a long term commitment. They will be around for decades. Especially considering your incentive is for production, not installed watts, you want the most out of your panels, and Sunpower is top notch. They continuously are setting the bar for efficiency advances.

I do agree with greenHouse that the SMA is a great inverter. Are the SunPower strings too high voltage for the SMA? Is this the reason for the transformer? I would be surprised if you couldn't find a way to match the Sunpower panels with an SMA inverter.

As always, test all your panels in full sunlight and triple check your installers references. Good luck and let us know how it goes! And most importantly post pictures!

[noammo]

thanks for your answers!
The reason I can't connect the Sunpower modules with a transformerless inverter is that they need a positive ground (each module)..
Regarding the chinese modules, PhonoSolar belong to the 2nd biggest corporation in China called Sumec Group. PhonoSolar note in their site that "To maximum protect the customer’s interest, Phono Solar has taken out the Products Liability Insurance." This should be good, right?
Is it really worth spending another 6000$ on Sunpower modules? (I can buy about 8 spare PhonoSolar modules in the difference!) Isn't it better to install PhonoSolar and just buy 2 spare modules (for about ~1500USD)?
Thanks a lot again, noam

[ChrisPSolar]

Hi Noam,

Product liability insurance would cover damage that the panels caused to your home, not performance. This is a fairly common thing, but you'd have to ask 'What can my panels do to damage my home?' With proper installation very little.

But, if you're serious about the cheaper panels the best thing to do is to research them thoroughly on the internet. The mfr and installer should be able to give you some references to call.

Every mfr has issues, Sunpower has had some in the past too. I just trust that the company will be around for awhile to address them. Two extra panels won't do you any good if all the panels start to fail. It happens, just keep up with your research and find someone that actually has installed the Phonosolars.

[Mike90250]

Sunpower with a Xantrex inverter, The GT series has + or - ground options, just be sure the proper one is ordered. (there may be a way to make the change in the field, but I'm not sure). The Sunpower inverters are re-branded Xantrex.

[noammo]

some more details:
In the 1st system I'll get 18*225 Sunpower modules = a 4050 Kwp system
In the 2nd system I'll get 18*220 poly SolarWorld modules = a 3960 Kwp system
In the 3rd system I'll get 22*190 mono PhonoSolar modules = a 4180 Kwp system

Do you still think it's worth paying an additional 4.6K to 5.5K (in US$, almost 20% more!) for a 3.1%-5.2% smaller system?

[Mike90250]

You can buy cheap, and hope for the best. Or buy (pay) for name brand and have more confidence in it. It's your $$, none of it goes to me.
There is no "fixing" or repair of UL panels on a roof.

[Jason]

I did quite a bit of research on Phono Solar and came up with the following. I didn't run into anything negative or odd about the company. They are state owned, have lots of financial backing, and been in the game for 6 years so far. I'm not giving an opinion of what you should go with, just sharing more info about the unknown

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McClellan Products, Inc. A privately held corporation that designs, builds and manages solar and wind farms, sells commercial and residential wind and solar solutions, today announces that it has been awarded a $500,000 grant rebate for a 650kw solar project in Georgia.

McClellan Products, Inc will begin building the 650kw project in January, 2010. Phono Solar will provide approximately 2,830 solar panels that will be used for this project.
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Here's some background on Sumec, the company that created Phono Solar:

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]SUMEC Group Corporation (SUMEC), founded in 1978, is a 100 % state owned company, The business volume is 2.1 billion US Dollars in 2008. The group has over 30 member companies and the business is involved in wide field including project contractor of shipbuilding, turn-key project of engineering, the R & D, manufacture and export of machinery and electric products such as power tools, garden tools, power machinery as well as wind energy products. It also covers the import of production materials and technological equipment.

Years of in good faith cooperation, the group has gained the strong financial strenght, in 2008, the bank credibility in USD 1.7 billion. the company has a batch of in-depth cooperation partners throughout the whole process of international trading operation.

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=darkred]Since 2004 SUMEC has involved in PV business, several years hard working, the group has developed extensive connections in the industry, and has build a batch of close cooperation partners with the leading companies. Taking the advantage of the group

[SherryNi]

Phono Solar

Dear noam,

We are glad to receive you letter of February 2, 2010 and sorry for replying you late.

As you know, Phono Solar has, in a quite short time, become one of the top exporters in the ever-growing Chinese solar industry. It's not merely because of our price but also because of the quality.

Just because our price is not as expensive as others', doesn't mean our PV panels are cheap. Actually, our price is not cheap, but it's competitive and reasonable for our advantage of the financial strength and resources integration ability.And please kindly note that we already have successfully solar projects in Israel, Europe, Eastern Aisa and North America.

Any questions, do not hesitate to contact us.

Phono Solar

[noammo]

Thanks SherryNi.
My integrator would rather work with Sunpower for some reason.
He also claims your panels have a shorter (5 year) guaranty time and that they are plus rated...
For that reason he says his guaranty for the system would be only 2 years with Phono Solar modules rather than 5 years on the entire system with other modules. Isn't there anything you can do in order to increase intergrators' confidence [in general, not mine in particular]?
thanks, noam

[noammo]

Ah, and can you please give some more details regarding the succesful projects you noted?
I'm leading a group of 270 families, so this is quite a serious decision...

[Mike90250]

If the panels only carry a 5 year warranty, forget them. They should have a 20 or 25 year warranty, like all the "name brand" panels do. Or pay the lower cost, and then in 6 or 7 years, pay labor costs to replace the sick ones. Repeat yearly, till all have failed.

[noammo]

thanks but I think I didn't explain properly.
please see their warranty attached (the three alternatives I have)
thanks a lot, noam

[Jarod]

thanks but I think I didn't explain properly.
please see their warranty attached (the three alternatives I have)
thanks a lot, noam

It's the first term,five years vs ten years warranty of repair,replacement or remedy. I really can't see much differences.
And most of our Chinese company such as suntech, only provide 5 years warranty of repair,replacement or remedy.Just want to reduce the long term customer service costs.
The 25 years of live time warranty are the same.