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  • #16
    Originally posted by Kenstl View Post
    Good point, maybe I am looking at the production and sizing of the system incorrectly. How would you run the numbers based on the system below? House faces south, avg full sun is 4.6 hours a day for area per a reference sheet I was given. My use history is 13,500 kWh per year, rate is $0.10 kw.

    PV Modules: ReneSola Virtus II 156 Series Polycrystalline 255 Watt Modules.
    Inverters: ReneSola Replus-250A Microinverters.
    - 8.67 kW estimated installed power capacity (direct current, standard test conditions)
    - 34 modules and 34 microinverters.

    Cost:$25,570 for 8.67 kW or $2.95 kWh
    Amren
    Rebate $2.00 or $17,340 which brings cost to $8,230
    30% federal $2,469 (or can this be 30% of the total cost of project?)
    Out of pocket $5,761
    It looks like you have a pretty good final price of $5761 for the 8.67kw system which comes to about $0.67/watt. Usually a vendor will provide you with an average kWh generation value for your system or you can go to the following website and enter the information they ask for and it will provide you with an estimate of what your system can produce and savings.

    http://pvwattsbeta.nrel.gov/

    The just divide the amount saved into the amount spent and you get a close payback in years.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
      It looks like you have a pretty good final price of $5761 for the 8.67kw system which comes to about $0.67/watt. Usually a vendor will provide you with an average kWh generation value for your system or you can go to the following website and enter the information they ask for and it will provide you with an estimate of what your system can produce and savings.

      http://pvwattsbeta.nrel.gov/

      The just divide the amount saved into the amount spent and you get a close payback in years.
      great link, thanks. After going through that site, the system generation is estimated at 10,285 kWh or $1,029 worth of electricity at $0.10 kWh. That would put the payback period around 5.6 years. Based on averages, my budget billing theoretically would go from $111 month for electric down to $25 a month. Thanks again.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
        First off the electric rates have been pretty flat for over the past 10 years with some ups and downs although with Duke Energy now in the mix that might change.
        Cheap Natural Gas has helped to keep rates steady. We are now going to begin exporting NG so our prices will go up. Lots of pressure to decommission cheap coal-fired plants as they are regulating them into oblivion. Enjoy this cheap energy... it won't last long.

        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
        I also talked to a Realtor that lives in my neighborhood. She hasn't seen see a big difference in the value of a home with solar as compared to a similar home without. For some reason having a solar panel system is not a big draw as to having a new kitchen.
        It is up to the agent to EDUCATE the buyer as to what having solar can do for them. $100 savings per month for 20 years is $24,000. Take that $100 saved per month and put it towards mortgage principle and it is worth closer to $50,000 in reducing mortgage obligation over 20 years. Too many order-takers and not enough closers in real estate today. I am a mortgage broker in my day job, so I can say that.

        The only reason a solar system wouldn't increase the value of a property is if nobody took the time to put the benefits on paper and do a savings analysis for a potential buyer. A kitchen isn't going to save you $24,000 over 20 years.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by GridGrants View Post
          Cheap Natural Gas has helped to keep rates steady. We are now going to begin exporting NG so our prices will go up. Lots of pressure to decommission cheap coal-fired plants as they are regulating them into oblivion. Enjoy this cheap energy... it won't last long.



          It is up to the agent to EDUCATE the buyer as to what having solar can do for them. $100 savings per month for 20 years is $24,000. Take that $100 saved per month and put it towards mortgage principle and it is worth closer to $50,000 in reducing mortgage obligation over 20 years. Too many order-takers and not enough closers in real estate today. I am a mortgage broker in my day job, so I can say that.

          The only reason a solar system wouldn't increase the value of a property is if nobody took the time to put the benefits on paper and do a savings analysis for a potential buyer. A kitchen isn't going to save you $24,000 over 20 years.
          Agree, unfortunately many consumers go for the bling over value. $100 a month savings on electric translates in to increased purchase power of $18,628 on a 30 year mortgage at 5% rate. One would think that over time and as the consumer becomes more educated on cost savings through high energy appliances, solar etc, that these items will be considered a benefit with value vs an added bonus.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by GridGrants View Post
            Cheap Natural Gas has helped to keep rates steady. We are now going to begin exporting NG so our prices will go up. Lots of pressure to decommission cheap coal-fired plants as they are regulating them into oblivion. Enjoy this cheap energy... it won't last long.



            It is up to the agent to EDUCATE the buyer as to what having solar can do for them. $100 savings per month for 20 years is $24,000. Take that $100 saved per month and put it towards mortgage principle and it is worth closer to $50,000 in reducing mortgage obligation over 20 years. Too many order-takers and not enough closers in real estate today. I am a mortgage broker in my day job, so I can say that.

            The only reason a solar system wouldn't increase the value of a property is if nobody took the time to put the benefits on paper and do a savings analysis for a potential buyer. A kitchen isn't going to save you $24,000 over 20 years.
            As for solar increasing the value of a home: My explanation of benefits would go something like this: Suppose I was looking at a home and the agent told me that the house had solar panels (Sunpower, 6720 D.C watts) that were installed 6 years ago at a cost of $53k before rebates/tax credits w/ documentation, and that is part of the reason the asking price is what it is. Today, the same 6720 Watt system can be purchased for about $30-31K for Sunpower before rebates. The new system is the same size, but more efficient w/same or better warranty and 6 years less deterioration. Question: Why would the old, existing system be a positive selling point ? If I wanted a house w/ solar, I think I'd look for one w/out it, save the uninformed prattle from the real estate slug, and eventually put a new system of my own choosing, properly sized to my needs on it. My experience is that people saying solar increases the value of a home think they know something about real estate, but IMO know little if anything or less about solar or most anything else for that matter.

            Comment


            • #21
              Of course trying to price the full original solar cost (even after rebates and incentives) into an existing home without considering any kind of depreciation (due to use and due to lower pricing) is not going to work. The right approach is to price it using the equivalent system's CURRENT/NEW pricing minus all CURRENT/NEW incentives/rebates/tax credits, then depreciate it by the number of years it's already been in use (out of the number of years left for the full system warranty). Then discount it a little more even to incentivize it as a good deal for potential buyer if you want to (or not). Then use the previous owner's documented savings to show how long the system will pay for itself for the new owner with the newly adjusted system price. Only then can a potential buyer decide whether there's value in paying for the extra above the home market price or not, depending on how long they plan to stay in the house themselves.

              Another approach is to determine how much value is left before you consider the system is paid for. For example, to keep it simple, let's say that you paid $7K for the system out of pocket after all the incentives and the numbers show that it'll take you 7 years for the system to pay for itself in terms of electricity savings you gain. And let's say you've live in the house for 3 years already, so you have 4 years left before the system pays for itself. Then obviously if you just want to recover at least your principle on the system, and since you spent $7K for the system and have recovered $3K out of it from the electricity saving, then the asking price for the system (on top of the house) is going to be $4K. Basically what you're doing here is ask the potential buyer to split the cost of the system with you, and he's going to benefit from the system for free after 4 years. His incentive is that his payback period is going to be shorter than the original payback period, and HE, not you, will get to benefit from the system for free after his shorter payback period.

              Now you have 2 different price points to work with from the 2 cases above. One is obviously going to be higher than the other (your top line asking price and bottom line asking price). One is to recognize the fact that the new owner has the option to go out and get a newer, lower-priced system, and factoring that in. The other is from the perspective of the seller just trying to recover his remaining investment on the system, and passing along the (now sooner) reward of a free system to the new owner.

              Of course, there may be more factors that may come into play, too. For example, in the case of places where the utility company charges solar owners a monthly service charge for net metering, and you're exempt because you're grandfathered in, then it would play to your advantage. Or in the case where the utility company still pay you a premium for your solar production (in order to meet their REC credits), but maybe they don't do that for new customers anymore (wonder if there's such a case?), then it would also play to your advantage. Of course this would depend on whether the grandfather clause is transferable to the new owner at the same address or not.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Volusiano View Post
                Of course trying to price the full original solar cost (even after rebates and incentives) into an existing home without considering any kind of depreciation (due to use and due to lower pricing) is not going to work. The right approach is to price it using the equivalent system's CURRENT/NEW pricing minus all CURRENT/NEW incentives/rebates/tax credits, then depreciate it by the number of years it's already been in use (out of the number of years left for the full system warranty). Then discount it a little more even to incentivize it as a good deal for potential buyer if you want to (or not). Then use the previous owner's documented savings to show how long the system will pay for itself for the new owner with the newly adjusted system price. Only then can a potential buyer decide whether there's value in paying for the extra above the home market price or not, depending on how long they plan to stay in the house themselves.

                Another approach is to determine how much value is left before you consider the system is paid for. For example, to keep it simple, let's say that you paid $7K for the system out of pocket after all the incentives and the numbers show that it'll take you 7 years for the system to pay for itself in terms of electricity savings you gain. And let's say you've live in the house for 3 years already, so you have 4 years left before the system pay for itself. Then obviously if you just want to recover at least your principle on the system, and since you spent $7K for the system and have recovered $3K out of it from the electricity saving, then the asking price for the system (on top of the house) is going to be $4K. Basically what you're doing here is ask the potential buyer to split the cost of the system with you, and he's going to benefit from the system for free after 4 years. His incentive is that his payback period is going to be shorter than the original payback period, and HE, not YOU, will get to benefit from the system for free after his shorter payback period.

                Now you have 2 different price points to work with from the 2 cases above. One is obviously going to be higher than the other (your top line asking price and bottom line asking price). One is to recognize the fact that the new owner has the option to go out and get a newer, lower-priced system, and factoring that in. The other is from the perspective of the seller just trying to recover his remaining investment on the system, and passing along the (now sooner) reward of a free system to the new owner.

                Of course, there may be more factors that may come into play, too. For example, in the case of places where the utility company charges solar owners a monthly service charge for net metering, and you're exempt because you're grandfathered in, then it would play to your advantage. Or in the case where the utility company still pay you a premium for your solar production (in order to meet their REC credits), but maybe they don't do that for new customers anymore (wonder if there's such a case?), then it would also play to your advantage. Of course this would depend on whether the grandfather clause is transferable to the new owner at the same address or not.
                I believe I agree with most all of the above as logical and sensible. I'm less than optimistic of most real estate people understanding any of it much less applying it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                  I believe I agree with most all of the above as logical and sensible. I'm less than optimistic of most real estate people understanding any of it much less applying it.
                  I agree that the real estate agent won't know how to do this. You'd probably have to do the homework on this and crunch all the numbers yourself, then lay it all out to your real estate agent so they understand the rationale behind it to explain to buyers and have documented info to show the buyers.

                  If anything, the real estate agent just has to remember the key selling points of the add on cost. For example, "Yeah, you'd have to pay $4K more for the solar system on this house. But here's documented information that this extra cost will pay for itself in 4 years in the form of $1K in electricity saving each year, and from then on, you get $1K worth of free electricity every year for the rest of your life in this house. And if you sell the house in 4 years or later, it's going to be a + selling point to have it on the house without any extra cost to your buyer."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                    I believe I agree with most all of the above as logical and sensible. I'm less than optimistic of most real estate people understanding any of it much less applying it.
                    And that is why you keep it simple. How much are they saving a month on their electric bill and what is the expected remaining life of the system. Give them that number. You're trying to get a little extra on the sales price of your home and not trying to educate them on all the nuances of actuarial tables and depreciation of assets much less wanting to get into the weeds on current replacement costs. The most important thing to remember in home sales is the buyer doesn't care what you paid for it or what you owe on it. That works for the house as well as any updates. They only care about what it is worth right now. It is easy to show that a home with an operating solar system is worth more than one without it. Keep it simple and you should be able to recoup what you have into it if not more.

                    The buyer will come up with a number in their mind what they feel it is worth to them. "Hmmm, we will save $20,000 on electric bills in the next 20 years... yeah, I guess we can offer another $10K and feel pretty good about it."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GridGrants View Post
                      Cheap Natural Gas has helped to keep rates steady. We are now going to begin exporting NG so our prices will go up. Lots of pressure to decommission cheap coal-fired plants as they are regulating them into oblivion. Enjoy this cheap energy... it won't last long.

                      It is up to the agent to EDUCATE the buyer as to what having solar can do for them. $100 savings per month for 20 years is $24,000. Take that $100 saved per month and put it towards mortgage principle and it is worth closer to $50,000 in reducing mortgage obligation over 20 years. Too many order-takers and not enough closers in real estate today. I am a mortgage broker in my day job, so I can say that.
                      The mortgage calculation can be used against ANY other expenditure. Except, some who figured that
                      out don't have a mortgage. The gas company finally ran out here and offered to hook up their cheap
                      gas. EXCEPT, there is now a $28 a month connect fee to make sure they rake in enough. It was only
                      $7 a few years ago; I only need the gas a few months of the year. I went another way. Bruce Roe

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        At .93 a therm and a $13 customer charge I will stick with gas.
                        NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                        [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                        [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                        [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by GridGrants View Post
                          And that is why you keep it simple. How much are they saving a month on their electric bill and what is the expected remaining life of the system. Give them that number. You're trying to get a little extra on the sales price of your home and not trying to educate them on all the nuances of actuarial tables and depreciation of assets much less wanting to get into the weeds on current replacement costs. The most important thing to remember in home sales is the buyer doesn't care what you paid for it or what you owe on it. That works for the house as well as any updates. They only care about what it is worth right now. It is easy to show that a home with an operating solar system is worth more than one without it. Keep it simple and you should be able to recoup what you have into it if not more.

                          The buyer will come up with a number in their mind what they feel it is worth to them. "Hmmm, we will save $20,000 on electric bills in the next 20 years... yeah, I guess we can offer another $10K and feel pretty good about it."
                          Respectfully:

                          1.) As you suggest - A home is only worth what someone is willing to pay. I agree that what the seller thinks a home is worth has little if any bearing on what the buyer may think.

                          2.) I try to look at things from the other person's perspective and think as that person, a potential buyer, might.

                          3.) As much as I like KISS, sometimes not everything can be explained in 25 words or less. I've had some success reading my audience and changing the presentation to be the most effective with as few words as possible and still communicate effectively and hopefully completely. Some folks you just can't reach.

                          4.) I'd suggest it is just as easy to come up with likely scenarios that suggest a home with an operating solar system is worth less or is less marketable than one without a working solar system. A few off the top of my head:
                          - The system is old, not maintained and MAY need maintenance, just how old or how much maint. may be unknown to a canny but solar-ignorant and cynically skeptical potential buyer. They may be put off by their ignorance and the uncertainty borne of that ignorance.
                          - The potential buyer thinks solar is a scam, is put off by ugly panels and may ask for price reduction or not want it at all. I'd suggest solar energy systems may not increase the marketability of a property for that segment of the market. Not everyone is a solar fan like most of us.
                          - The potential buyer MAY be solar savvy and a fan, but realize the system is wrong for their situation - e.g., a system sized to produce 2X the potential buyer's annual load. Why pay more for what you don't need ? That same potential buyer may want the newest stuff of their own choosing, not someone else's stuff who was probably solar ignorant and got talked into something a number of years ago.
                          - etc.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Power Company Rebates

                            I read several of the posters saying they get $1.00 to $2.00 per kW DC rebates. That's fantastic! Here in Southern CA we are getting $0.09 per kW DC...........except the state ran out of $$$$$ So we get......wait for it........wait for it.............NOTHING!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bigroccrek View Post
                              I read several of the posters saying they get $1.00 to $2.00 per kW DC rebates. That's fantastic! Here in Southern CA we are getting $0.09 per kW DC...........except the state ran out of $$$$$ So we get......wait for it........wait for it.............NOTHING!
                              Where are you getting your info? CSI is 20 cent per watt. Most of installers now matching the CSI with their own incentive program 90 days after installation. read more...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by silversaver View Post
                                Where are you getting your info? CSI is 20 cent per watt. Most of installers now matching the CSI with their own incentive program 90 days after installation. read more...
                                I don't believe The CSI situation is quite that simple. In some areas, the money has expired. Others like SDG & E territory, The $$'s ran out so other sources were re-allocated - probably enough to last another 3-6 months depending on demand/how many systems sold. Also, the $.20/Watt is/was the max. before reductions for panel eff./orientation/other stuff. The actual was probably closer to $.15 $.18/Watt or less for a lot of shading or way off south orientation. As for that matching CSI nonsense, why not just reduce the price up front ?

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