Trouble in Hawaii's Solar Paradise

[Jason]

You would think that Hawaii and solar would be a good combination, but there have been a series of articles about why there may be trouble brewing in this solar paradise. The Los Angeles Times ran an article last year detailing the triumphs of the solar industry in Hawaii and some of the challenges that the fast growth have posed for Hawaii. According to the article, solar power has taken off in Hawaii because of "friendly tax credits, the highest average electricity rates in the nation and the most aggressive renewable energy program adopted by any state." Unlike in other states, solar in Hawaii is becoming a large component of the energy on the various islands. This has meant that numerous small installations have contributed to an unstable grid.

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[Sunking]

I have been saying this for what? Ever since I have been here right. For every watt of solar you must add a watt to conventional power sources to stay in hot standby. So you get to pay for it twice and never save any emissions. You just make more pollution and artificially raise electric rates running jobs and tax dollars to another state or country. They got exactly what they asked for.

[PNjunction]

How ironic - you subsidize your neighbor's grid-tie systems which take down the grid, leaving you to rely on your own backyard off-grid solar in the meantime. Talk about paying for solar twice!

[bonaire]

Bring a solution to the table. It's one thing to complain about something. Design a solution, sell it, make things better. Or, is it impossible?

Problem with the grid is as it always has been, immediate consumption needed. Some day, some form of buffered delivery will happen - not sure how but grid stabilization is needed so that intermittent renewable power is viable. Battery buffers at each "Solar Home"? Integration of Electric Vehicles as buffers? Limit the feed-back of Solar PV homes to a low amount so it doesn't cause grid instability?

If a high capacity battery at cheap cost was available, would that solve it? Companies like A123 and others had done some pilot projects with 1 and 2MW type "battery buffers" for grid stabilization. Expensive, sure. But one day this kind of thing makes sense if the costs and technology meet in a sweet spot. You get to a solution by trying.

Nothing is impossible - get to the whiteboard. Complaining just means you've given up. Complainers are not impressive; they're lazy. Remember when horse traders complained about the noisy horseless carriages around town saying they'd never work?

[SunEagle]

... Some day, some form of buffered delivery will happen - not sure how but grid stabilization is needed so that intermittent renewable power is viable. Battery buffers at each "Solar Home"? Integration of Electric Vehicles as buffers? Limit the feed-back of Solar PV homes to a low amount so it doesn't cause grid instability?

I agree with you that someone someday will invent a cost effective battery or energy storage unit for a home system. I just hope I get to see it in my lifetime.

... Remember when horse traders complained about the noisy horseless carriages around town saying they'd never work?

They worked alright but besides the cow belches (methane) they are a major source of hydro carbon pollutants that we now have to deal with.

[bonaire]

They worked alright but besides the cow belches (methane) they are a major source of hydro carbon pollutants that we now have to deal with.

In terms of buffer - apparently, new activity in a partnership between Panasonic and PowerOne is forming. Trying to create some sort of energy hub. I wonder if that is some type of hybrid home battery buffer. Can't be cheap at first but it may have legs in 10-20 years. Yeah yeah, 10 - 20 times the cost of energy of the grid

[SunEagle]

In terms of buffer - apparently, new activity in a partnership between Panasonic and PowerOne is forming. Trying to create some sort of energy hub. I wonder if that is some type of hybrid home battery buffer. Can't be cheap at first but it may have legs in 10-20 years. Yeah yeah, 10 - 20 times the cost of energy of the grid

Well I should still be alive in 10 to 20 years.

I believe the main issue is not technology but in the lack of urgency to develop an inexpensive storage unit. I guess the powers that be feel as long as there is less expensive ways to generate electricity why build a better battery.

My problem is that I got wrapped up in the thinking that was depicted by the 1964 Worlds Fair and what they thought the world would be like by now.

[Sunking]

I believe the main issue is not technology but in the lack of urgency to develop an inexpensive storage unit. I guess the powers that be feel as long as there is less expensive ways to generate electricity why build a better battery.

Actually that is not true. Some very large companies like Mitsubishi, GE, Exon Mobil, Panasonic, and all the worlds developed countries governments are trying to be the first to do so. The first one to get it right owns the world and rules everything on it.

[Naptown]

Actually that is not true. Some very large companies like Mitsubishi, GE, Enron, Panasonic, and all the worlds developed countries governments are trying to be the first to do so. The first one to get it right owns the world and rules everything on it.

They still around?

[Sunking]

They still around?

My bad I meant Exxon.

[PNjunction]

Bring a solution to the table. It's one thing to complain about something. Design a solution, sell it, make things better. Or, is it impossible?

Not impossible - While my remark was said in jest I think it is a fascinating problem with some simple solutions. In ten minutes I came up with this:

1) Admit that the grid can't handle it without a major infrastructure upgrade and put a moratorium on future grid-tie installations. Least satisfactory.

2) Add additional incentives to those willing to add battery storage to new systems, or modify existing ones. The plan here is not to have off-grid battery backup, but grid-tie storage that acts upon grid destabilization parameters as very temporary "stabilizing" buffer.

3) Offer incentives to commercial entities willing to rent space for grid-tie battery vaults - again as temporary grid stabilizers, and not off-grid backup. This offer is not limited to those who already have solar installations, but merely to those who want to rent battery vault space if they have it. We rent rooftop space for cell towers, microwave dishes etc, so why not rent space in the basement as well? This would allow commercial entities to get into the game if for whatever reason they don't have/want grid-tie panels.

In this case, the batteries would mostly be on float, and would not contribute to the stabilization effort until the custom controller detects destabilization parameters. Customers would have to know that the battery vaults on their property are not dedicated to backing up their own property, but part of the collective grid stabilization project.

[SunEagle]

My bad I meant Exxon.

They aren't the parent company anymore. It would be Mobile now.

Besides the point it is good to hear that at least some people are trying to develop a better battery.

[bonaire]

Not impossible - While my remark was said in jest I think it is a fascinating problem with some simple solutions. In ten minutes I came up with this:

1) Admit that the grid can't handle it without a major infrastructure upgrade and put a moratorium on future grid-tie installations. Least satisfactory.

2) Add additional incentives to those willing to add battery storage to new systems, or modify existing ones. The plan here is not to have off-grid battery backup, but grid-tie storage that acts upon grid destabilization parameters as very temporary "stabilizing" buffer.

3) Offer incentives to commercial entities willing to rent space for grid-tie battery vaults - again as temporary grid stabilizers, and not off-grid backup. This offer is not limited to those who already have solar installations, but merely to those who want to rent battery vault space if they have it. We rent rooftop space for cell towers, microwave dishes etc, so why not rent space in the basement as well? This would allow commercial entities to get into the game if for whatever reason they don't have/want grid-tie panels.

In this case, the batteries would mostly be on float, and would not contribute to the stabilization effort until the custom controller detects destabilization parameters. Customers would have to know that the battery vaults on their property are not dedicated to backing up their own property, but part of the collective grid stabilization project.

The incentives will be low until a good solution comes out. Now, if a good li-ion battery bank can be made to go along with every grid tie wind and solar system, at a cheap cost of input modules, then we have something. Like a 5MW array with 20MWh battery buffer that could be filled and drained daily having 7000 recharge cycles before replacement. It's far fetched today, but someday that may be very possible. Maybe the chemistries will come together for large scale lithium "cans" of say a 55 gal drum size holding 10,000 Ah each at 3.7V. Hook about 120 of them together for something like 440V DC nominal. Firms like AES are trying this kind of thing out. A123 was attempting it before they flamed out as a company.

This was typed on an iPad which would have been considered impossible in the year I graduated from college - 1986. The year I entered college, in 1981, they removed their punch card system from the school and added terminals from DEC.

The folks at GM have partnerships with some firm that will take end of life Volt batteries and make grid stabilization units out of them in a few years. Various efforts like this might pan out: http://energy.gov/articles/team-led-...gy-storage-hub

However, in the mean time, the primary change to energy policy in the USA should be to utilize technology to recycle nuclear fuel rods. Reuse of them is very important for a sound energy future. Conservation is also very important.

[PNjunction]

Well, the challenge was to come up with a real world solution. What I proposed is something that could be implemented *today*, and not crossing fingers for the future without relying on locked-down vendor-specific technology - aside from a grid controller with custom paramaters to detect and act upon destabilization. I have no idea if it is even feasable technically or financially, but does reflect the idea that something CAN be done about it immediately.

I well remember DEC terminals. From using locked-down vendor proprietary operating systems like TOPS-20 and VMS (ultimately to become Windows NT behind Cutlers move to Microsoft), and BSD which eventually became a distant relative of what you have in your hands now. Of course it has been proprietized based upon much of the tax dollars that my parents initially funded for UCB's work on TCP/IP and more from DARPA. Told you this wasn't the right forum for this.

The *nix-wars that occurred when vendors did their best to add proprietary non-interoperable extensions to what was once a nice universal system leads one to ask "where are they today"? Sure they had their day in the sun, but ultimately, that fenced-in mindset led to their lunch being eaten.

The point here is that there IS existing technology that can take care of immediate needs without having to wait for locked-down proprietary products where the motivation might be to make a profit at any cost, and solar/storage is only a green smoke-screen to implement non-interoperable solutions or fund a patent-arsenal for yet another NPE.

[bonaire]

How about if the grid took in weather patterns into account to factor in grid usage patterns and adjusted generation? Is the real issue simply the instantaneous issues of clouds in a situation like a locality of a Hawaiian island? Or for regions like SCE (s. cal Edison) with summer peaks of AC taking out subsections of grid due to brownout when it is 95 degrees and a cloud bank moves in at 3pm shutting down solar pv? I remember old grid stability issues being talked about regarding Christmas lighting being turned on at 5pm in some areas.

Our state of PA has added battery backup rebates to the sunshine program which fits your #2 item. It's minimal, really. We have a new 7.2MW array going in a few miles from my house this year. Supposedly selling power to our local school district and VA hospital. No batteries in their plan.

In terms of Linux, I'm helping one of my customers move from AIX to Linux. Faster and far cheaper than the IBM P7 boxes that they put in only two years ago. Nothing spends better than your customers' money.