LFP/Li-Ion for off grid

[bonaire]

If Cost were not an issue and systems were available at similar prices, would you guys use Lithium Ion-based off-grid or hybrid systems?

We know AGM and Lead have their issues in terms of State of Charge, keeping them above 80% daily, max 50% drawn down, etc. If Li-Ion cells with 3000-5000 full cycles were made available (maybe 10,000 some day when the physics works out) - would you ever go with such a solution? of course, the system would have a battery management wiring component to ensure cell balancing (just like RC battery packs do today for the larger multi-cell Li-Poly 5Ah+ packs with 2 to 6 cells or more for bigger planes).

Some may say that Li-Ion isn't there yet. But if cells drop in price and become readily-recycleable and can do 4000-5000 full 70% swing cycles (90% down to 20% every day - you then have cells good for 8-10 years versus the 4-5 years now with many off-grid systems. Plus, the size of such battery systems would be smaller. Good for many countries where large homes are uncommon and power grid fluctuations (India, island nations, etc) are common. Would the industry adopt Li-Ion battery systems over the current battery tech if done at a similar cost? Surely boat and RV systems could and perhaps should use Li-Ion for smaller size, deeper cycling and faster charge rates than existing C/10 or whatever rates AGM/Lead use for longevity.

We know a lot of people come to this site looking to "go solar and add batteries". I think that this is what they are thinking of when they imagine what it will look like if the system they imagine were to be made available. Heck - if you have an EV now such as a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt, you have the battery storage already and simply need the proper connectivity for the balance of system.

[Sunking]

If Li-Ion cells with 3000-5000 full cycles were made available (maybe 10,000 some day when the physics works out) - would you ever go with such a solution?

There is the problem. There is no known Lithium that last that long or in the works.

With Lithium you still need a minimum of 3 day reserve capacity. But there is a catch, price per Kwh of capacity. The Lithium are roughly 500% higher cost per Kwh of capacity. You can get a top quality 6 Kwh Lead Acid Battery with a 10 year warranty with 4000 cycles at a cost of $1320. That gives you roughly 1 Kwh/day with 3 day autonomy. An equivalent 4 Kwh LFP will cost you $4400 and only last about 1000 cycles.

It is a No Brainer decision. Which do you choose? $1320 for 10 years, or $4400 for 3 years. Realistically neither battery will ever see claimed capacity and cycles. About half of that.

[bonaire]

Here's a known LFP cell with 7000+ cycling in the lab and perhaps in the field. Also, this dying company (A123) is now bought by a Chinese company who will pursue the next gen chemistry, something called EXT.

http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/6610_1.pdf

I don't really mean to do a full cycle every day but off-gridders may do that. Perhaps they will do 1/2 cycle or 1/3.

Anyway, I think things have changed in terms of the Li-Ion world that you are writing off. If someone drove a Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf every day - you're saying their battery will not survive 3-4 years? Some people who have had Volts for over 2 years and close to 50K miles so far have said they have lost none of the car's range yet (even though they have factored in some excess SOC into the allowed usable range - where the battery set is 16kWh and they only allow 65% of its use or 10.4kWh - or 10.8kWh in 2013 model)

Forget costs - if Lithium cells could do the cycles and cost the same as Lead Acid, wouldn't the industry go that route? A123 was working on the EXT cells for battery standby systems for Cellular towers in areas like India where they could deploy in hot climates without the overhead costs of AC units for the battery systems. Don't cell towers use AGM or similar today?

[Sunking]

Here's a known LFP cell with 7000+ cycling in the lab and perhaps in the field. Also, this dying company (A123) is now bought by a Chinese company who will pursue the next gen chemistry, something called EXT.

http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/6610_1.pdf

Read the article closer. No where does it say the A123 battery will last 7000 cycles. It says it is designed to have 7000 cycles. If you look at the graph it is end of life at around 4000 cycles but has never been achieved in real applications.

Anyway, I think things have changed in terms of the Li-Ion world that you are writing off.

I have not written Lithium off yet. I monitor the technology closely to apply in Electric Vehicles where the expense can be justified.

Forget costs - if Lithium cells could do the cycles and cost the same as Lead Acid, wouldn't the industry go that route?

You cannot forget cost as it is the most important factor for RE systems. Right now Lithium does not even come close to competing with Lead Acid. It is not even close. As in my first reply which do you choose $1320 for a good 5 year Lead Acid battery, or $4400 for a 3 to 5 year Lithium?

Don't get me wrong, I am not against Lithium, exact opposite. I think one day in the future, not sure when lithium will compete with Lead Acid. But as right now it is not even close. The breakthrough if it happens, will be in the Electric Vehicle market. RE and Electronic systems will be a beneficiary of that, not the driving force behind it. The good news is manufactures are spending large amounts of cash in R&D. Believe it or not, Exxon will likely be the one to make the leap as they are spending huge amounts of money on R&D, and have the personnel to do it. .

[bonaire]

And the chemistries and substrates keep changing too. If enough ions can be captured and released through new physical properties, we may see a jump to 2-5 times the energy storage per kg. Then it gets more interesting if they can use simpler processes and materials to make the cells. It'll come down to R&D and trying various manufacturing techniques.

And, for the other thread - hydrogen is a battery. Those folks who think hydrogen used in vehicles is ever going to happen are misguided.

Most H2 is outgassed from chemical refining and primarily by a company called Air Products and Chemicals (Trexlertown, PA). The H2 that they produce now could power maybe a few thousand cars on their daily cycle. No way can it be scaled even to the levels that current EV sales are on a pace for.

I got interested in posting this thread today with the announcement by PowerOne (the guys who make the inverters on my system) partnering with Panasonic (battery maker of the Tesla cars) to create some future systems for home standby power. I figure they may design something that would be tied into RE systems with standby capability or perhaps even stretch it to EVs to be the battery. We'll have to see how it comes about. Panasonic makes smaller, energy-dense cylindrical cells that are made in the millions per year for consumer devices - so there is some savings of scale instead of using more pricey prismatic cells.

[Sunking]

Most H2 is outgassed from chemical refining and primarily by a company called Air Products and Chemicals (Trexlertown, PA).

That company and all other air product companies make the hydrogen from Natural Gas as it is the most efficient (roughly 60%) and economical means to do so. However that does not include the cost of cryogenic refrigeration, storage, and transportation.

But I agree with you a hydrogen economy is a dead end road. By the time you make it, transport it, and use it the efficiency drops to 10% or less. Hydrogen is not a source fuel, it is an energy carrier. Thus the cost of energy produced from hydrogen will always be a multiple of the source fuel. At 10% efficiency if electricity cost 10-cents per Kwh, then hydrogen will be $1 per Kwh plus profit. Plus you have used resources poorly by taking 10 units of energy to use 1 unit.

[russ]

And the chemistries and substrates keep changing too. If enough ions can be captured and released through new physical properties, we may see a jump to 2-5 times the energy storage per kg. Then it gets more interesting if they can use simpler processes and materials to make the cells. It'll come down to R&D and trying various manufacturing techniques.

And, for the other thread - hydrogen is a battery. Those folks who think hydrogen used in vehicles is ever going to happen are misguided.

Most H2 is outgassed from chemical refining and primarily by a company called Air Products and Chemicals (Trexlertown, PA). They are a player in the game but there are bigger last I knew. There are rather large amounts of H2 produced for industry. The H2 that they produce now could power maybe a few thousand cars on their daily cycle. No way can it be scaled even to the levels that current EV sales are on a pace for.

I got interested in posting this thread today with the announcement by PowerOne (the guys who make the inverters on my system) partnering with Panasonic (battery maker of the Tesla cars) to create some future systems for home standby power. I figure they may design something that would be tied into RE systems with standby capability or perhaps even stretch it to EVs to be the battery. We'll have to see how it comes about. Panasonic makes smaller, energy-dense cylindrical cells that are made in the millions per year for consumer devices - so there is some savings of scale instead of using more pricey prismatic cells.

Comment within the text in bold