Small Race Boat Solar Proposal

[BlueBell]

Last question:

Battery temp, BMS, use it or not?

Note- because the AGM is sealed and embedded into the foam hull,
I would like to have at least a temp sensor, read-out, and alarm.
At what temperature should I be alarmed?
Any sensor link or product line you can share?


Thank you all so much.

R2AK.com

EDIT- Wait a minute, what shade issues?

[Sunking]

Last question:

Battery temp, BMS, use it or not?

Not required

Note- because the AGM is sealed and embedded into the foam hull,
I would like to have at least a temp sensor, read-out, and alarm.
At what temperature should I be alarmed?

100 warning, 120 Major

EDIT- Wait a minute, what shade issues?

Rope, mast, sails, a leaf. Any shade.

That was 3 questions.

[BlueBell]

It was four actually, but you only answered three... lol.

And now, after more research on products, I have another question, they're related:
What brands / sources?
Canadian sources preferred because, it just makes it a lot easier and often, cheaper.
For: temp sensor-alarm, breaker switches, MPPT, flex-panels?

I was looking for a 20 amp MPPT with higher Voc tolerance for the three panel option, if needed.
No point in wasting 1.7 amp all day with a 15 amp limit.

Oh, no ropes, sails, masts, nothing blocks the panels.
In fact, they curve down slightly east-west and the canopy plexiglass ( at 30 degree off horizontal )
reflects some sunlight onto them from the south.
They may also be wet, which I understand can boost output slightly.
No shade issues.

Thank you.

[SunEagle]

It was four actually, but you only answered three... lol.

And now, after more research on products, I have another question, they're related:
What brands / sources?
Canadian sources preferred because, it just makes it a lot easier and often, cheaper.
For: temp sensor-alarm, breaker switches, MPPT, flex-panels?

I was looking for a 20 amp MPPT with higher Voc tolerance for the three panel option, if needed.
No point in wasting 1.7 amp all day with a 15 amp limit.

Oh, no ropes, sails, masts, nothing blocks the panels.
In fact, they curve down slightly east-west and the canopy plexiglass ( at 30 degree off horizontal )
reflects some sunlight onto them from the south.
They may also be wet, which I understand can boost output slightly.
No shade issues.

Thank you.

Sounds like an interesting boat design. Can you post some pictures of it or one like it?

[BlueBell]

SE, I would if I could!
But there isn't really one like it.
EARTHRACE is a similar boat but it's 70-tons and mine's 500 pounds with me on board, provisioned and racing.
I'm building the boat modually (is that even a word?) in my small, heated shop (frost again this morning!)
so pictures wouldn't really reveal much.
Find the EARTHRACE page and scroll down to the colourful graphic of wave piercing.
Mine won't submerge as much, but it can in a storm.
Then look at Dan Montegue's kiteboatproject operating in San Fran Bay!!!
Put the two together and voila, my boat.
$5000 budget for the boat including used, $3000 (new) carbon-fiber oars (donated).
Kite costs unknown. 0 - $10 000.

Maybe I'm approaching the whole brand name / product recommendation wrong.
Would this be appropriate? It meets all the technical requirements.
Would you buy it?
The wrong link keeps popping up....arghhh

[Sunking]

Correct me if I am wrong here but aren't you going to need a winch and steel cable to deploy and retract the kite? I cannot imagine using a small light weight kite would be of much use. I would think from being a pilot you want to get a fairly large kite up to at least 100 to 150 feet ASL to clear ground turbulence and get the kite into undisturbed linear air flow. At 45 degree angle is 150 to 220 feet of tow line strong enough to do the job.

[SunEagle]

SE, I would if I could!
But there isn't really one like it.
EARTHRACE is a similar boat but it's 70-tons and mine's 500 pounds with me on board, provisioned and racing.
I'm building the boat modually (is that even a word?) in my small, heated shop (frost again this morning!)
so pictures wouldn't really reveal much.
Find the EARTHRACE page and scroll down to the colourful graphic of wave piercing.
Mine won't submerge as much, but it can in a storm.
Then look at Dan Montegue's kiteboatproject operating in San Fran Bay!!!
Put the two together and voila, my boat.
$5000 budget for the boat including used, $3000 (new) carbon-fiber oars (donated).
Kite costs unknown. 0 - $10 000.

Maybe I'm approaching the whole brand name / product recommendation wrong.
Would this be appropriate? It meets all the technical requirements.
Would you buy it?
The wrong link keeps popping up....arghhh

I saw the Ady Gil destroyed by a Japan whaling ship in a TV segment featuring the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

It was a pretty cool design but it ran on biodiesel fuel. How do you plan on attaching the kite to propel your boat?

[BlueBell]

SunE, are you avoiding my questions?

With what I like to call a "poor man's traveller".
It's a section of 1/2" rope that runs athwartship just forward of midships.
The kite load-line travels freely on it from gunwale to gunwale on a pulley.
I prototyped the concept last summer along with barber-hauling, rudderless steering.

The ANDY GIB was indeed the reincarnation of EARTHRACE... RIP.


SunK, are you avoiding my questions too?

The kite is hand deployed off the control bar, from the open cockpit on tiny Amsteel lines,
flown to zenith, then transferred to the boat for, closed canopy, foot control.
A small hand-winch, in board, controls the barber-haulers (port and strd) to steer the boat.
I too am a pilot and you are correct, lots of benefits to getting aloft, especially when surface winds are zero.
A small lightweight kite is extremely effective on such a low drag hull, especially in a gale!

It gets better but I need to get my electrics ordered.
Please help.
Pictures to follow, I promise.

[J.P.M.]

I saw the Ady Gil destroyed by a Japan whaling ship in a TV segment featuring the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

It was a pretty cool design but it ran on biodiesel fuel. How do you plan on attaching the kite to propel your boat?

Isn't that the one where Godzilla then toasted the whaler and flushed it in a whirlpool, thus making the world safe for conservation ?

[Mike90250]

.....It gets better but I need to get my electrics ordered. Please help. Pictures to follow, I promise.

I don't care about pics, we really need to know a fairly detailed daily power budget. And for a short 5 day race, forget recharging, go with primary Li batteries (non rechargeable, very high power density) LiSO2 (sulfur dioxide)

maybe a couple of these lightweights https://atbatt.com/ultralife-ub0032-...itary-battery/

[BlueBell]

Mike, see post one for that info.
And these batteries are okay with repeated high impact?
$250/pound wow!
Very little is available in Canada in lithium-anything I'm finding.
Thanks

[Sunking]

Bluebell limiting to Canada products eliminates most everything. Canada is a very poor place for solar applications, thus very little demand for products. That is a plan to loose. To Mike's point batteries are sized to 3 to 5 days and if you use high density batteries makes them very lite weight. Not sure about high performance boats, but with planes and cars means NO BUDGET if you intend to win or even finish the race. Does not sound like you have any intention on competing.

I looked at your numbers.

Draw breakdown:
1 amp navigation system,
0.5 - 2 amps auto-pilot,
0 - 2 amps air blower, .
0.04 - 5 amp VHF radio,
0 - 1 amp nav lights,
0 - 2 amp bilge pump,
0 - 2 amp spot light,
Sat and cell phones.

What I cannot determine with any accuracy is how long any one item will be in operation. That is a huge problem. Example the Auto Pilot you have .5 to 2 amps. How many hours is that at what amperage? Say it is 1 amp for 24 hours a day. That is 24 AH/day just for Auto Pilot.

See the problem? No one can tell you much because there is not enough info, just wild guesses. The only solid real number you have and is still a guess on my part is Navigation System uses 1 -Amp 24 hours a day which is 24 AH/day. That is 1/2 your battery budget at 100 AH battery.

[BlueBell]

SunK,

I am insulted and frustrated by your response.

I am not limiting to Canadian products, I am limited by what is available in Canada.
Please read more carefully.

What on earth would make you think I have no plan to compete?
On the contrary, I plan on winning the race.
If it's because you don't see me on there website as a competitor it's because they
won't accept my application until my boat is in the water and they have a pretty picture to put up.
I can't get them a pretty picture until I finish the boat.
I can't move forward and finish the boat until I know the dimensions of the battery box, etc.
And I only have until April 15th to provide that so I need to move forward.
This is not moving forward.

I have a budget, I went over that earlier in the thread.
I have no sponsors.

Are these batteries Mike recommends available in Canada?
Are they up to repeated hard impacts?
Not likely to both.
Why didn't you recommend them before?
Are they safe?

So, are you really interested in understanding my electrical scenario
or are we just into bashing the Canadian at this point?
I've already told you my draw is 2 - 5 amps, 24/7, total.
I gave you the most accurate breakdown I have.
The draw may vary, that's just the way it is.
I am not being fickle, I am being as accurate as possible.
I included what the individual draws were only to show what kind of draws they were
and where I got my average from.
I've already estimated the overall demand: 2 - 5 amps, 24/7.
If you want a hard number use 4 amps, 24/7.
You don't seem to understand how it could vary and unwilling to accept that, so I will try to explain:
<sigh>
The autopilot name plate says 0.5 - 2 amps.
It varies because it depends on how much it has to work.
If it's constantly making course corrections then the little motor is working a lot and drawing up to two amps.
There will be times I'm not even using the autopilot, but there may be times I'm using it constantly.
So, I've estimated it at 0.5 - 2 amps as per the name plate and as per my possible use.
That's the best estimate I can give, sorry if it's not a hard number.

The navigation system draw is much easier, 1 amp and it's on at all times, except when I am stopped.
Stopping doesn't win races, however, there are times I may either have to stop or have the luxury to
stop and rest. Lets assume I'll be able to go continuously.

The blower draws 2 amps. It'll be on a rheostat so I can conserve power, running it only enough to
keep the canopy clear of condensation. This I explained earlier in the thread.

The VHF radio uses 0.04 amps on standby, 1 amp to receive, and 5 amps to transmit.
This as well I have explained previously.

Navigational lights draw 1 amp but they are only on in low light situations, fog, heavy rain, darkness.

The bilge pump draws 2 amps. But only when it's on! Let's hope it's never on.

Spot light, same thing.

Satellite and cell phones are safety items that I don't have numbers for but they'll be low
and likely never used unless I'm bailing out of the race and calling for help.

Maybe you don't understand why I don't have a hard number for you because you're not a mariner
and can't appreciate things are not straight forward and concrete when on the water.
Please accept my estimate of 2 - 5 amps constant draw, 24 hours a day, okay?
If you must have a hard number use 4 amps, 24/7.

There are no "wild guesses" here, you insult me, I have given much consideration and thought
towards what I need and what I can do without, what will be on and what will be off, when
and how it will affect different circumstances under race conditions.

So, please, how would you best meet those needs given my circumstances?

[J.P.M.]

SunK, I am insulted and frustrated by your response.....So, please, how would you best meet those needs given my circumstances?

If I thought someone was insulting me, I probably wouldn't ask for their advice.

Just sayin'.

[Sunking]

I am insulted and frustrated by your response.

Grow up and put your big boy pants on.

I am not limiting to Canadian products, I am limited by what is available in Canada.
Please read more carefully.

I understood the first time. Again Canada is extremely limited, and if you want the best, you will have to look outside Canada.

What on earth would make you think I have no plan to compete?
On the contrary, I plan on winning the race.

Pretty clear to me with the limitations you have set on yourself.

Are these batteries Mike recommends available in Canada?

Me does not know, not my job to look it up for you.

Are they up to repeated hard impacts?
Not likely to both.
Why didn't you recommend them before?
Are they safe?

They are Lithium Primary Cells, not secondary Lithium Ion cells. Tough as nails and extremely expensive. They cannot be recharged.

So, are you really interested in understanding my electrical scenario
or are we just into bashing the Canadian at this point?
I've already told you my draw is 2 - 5 amps, 24/7, total.
I gave you the most accurate breakdown I have.
The draw may vary, that's just the way it is.
I am not being fickle, I am being as accurate as possible.
I included what the individual draws were only to show what kind of draws they were
and where I got my average from.
I've already estimated the overall demand: 2 - 5 amps, 24/7.
If you want a hard number use 4 amps, 24/7.
You don't seem to understand how it could vary and unwilling to accept that, so I will try to explain:
<sigh>

I understand far better than you ever will. I am a professional engineer that has been doing this for 40 years.

Example 2 to 5 amps 24 x 7 is a battery size of 150 AH to 350 AH. You tell me what guess to make. If 4 amps is your hard number you need 300 AH battery 2 to 3 times larger and heavier than you have anticipated.

Bottom line it is not my job to protect you from yourself. That is your job. What I can do is help you figure things out and why. What you need to figure out is how many Amp Hours you will use in a 1 hour period. Say that number is 50 AH. Whatever that number is, multiply x 3 = 150 AH.

Your next question is why 3? To save you from yourself and cloudy days. With 3 day reserve covers your butt for 2 days of clouds. With AGM you have to limit discharge to around 75 to 80% before you must go dark and wait a full day of full sun to recharge while you float around, or learn how to navigate by the sun and stars.

Once you figure out the battery size, it is time time to figure out panel wattage and controller. I will make that real easy for you. Example if the battery size comes out to be 100 AH, you are going to want to charge at the 4 to 5 hour rate, so you can recover from two cloudy days in a day while using your equipment. Real Simple 100 AH / 4 Hours = 25 amps, or 100 AH / 5 Hours = 20 Amps. You now have the MPPT Charge controller size. Panel wattage required is Charge Amps x 13 volts. So if you need 20 amps would be 20 amps x 13 volts = 260 watts.

Once you have the numbers, the design is super simple. Now it is your turn to put a value on your life and winning. Bottom line is I nor will anyone else tell you what size battery to get because there are only two answers of either to small or 2 large. If forced to answer will be too LARGE. If it were me I would have that VHF/UHF radio on its own system isolated from everything else so you can call Mayday ...---... when and if you are dead in the water and need rescued.

Good Luck