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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Yes and all those requirements skyrocketed vehicle prices.
    Sorry, false, Average vehicle price in 1987 - $27,916 (in 2016 dollars.) Average vehicle price today - $25,449. Even if you go all the way back to 1967, vehicle prices were only $22,807. No "skyrocket."

    Not many working class people can afford a brand new car today.
    That may well be true, but they can afford them more easily than their parents could 30 years ago.


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    • #47
      Originally posted by max2k View Post
      I'd argue efficiency rush was triggered by gas prices hikes so no government intervention was required. What you're referring to is politics and that is fascinating subject but all those improvements (except safety) were made possible by drastic change in design- instead of carburetor based cars car makers went with injection based ones which immediately made AFR control much more precise. That was quite a revolution in design IMO. Not sure government helped in any way.
      That change was driven by the requirement to use catalytic converters; they required very accurate fuel/air mixtures to work correctly. And you needed a catalytic converter to meet CARB requirements*. And again, car companies screamed bloody murder that the government was requiring them to put a computer - a COMPUTER! - in every car, which would surely price them out of everyone's reach. (Once the demand was there, of course, they became dirt cheap.)

      So that revolution was driven by CARB requirements, not by any voluntary decision by carmakers. They preferred the cheap carburetors they were used to.

      (* - the one exception was the Honda CVCC engine, which could reach CARB levels of pollution without a catalytic converter - and could thus still use a carburetor.)

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      • #48
        Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
        Sorry, false,
        You are blind. Just the mandatory use of Catalytic converter bumped price up $1000. Air bags $1500. and the list goes on.


        Last edited by Sunking; 07-19-2017, 08:17 PM.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #49
          Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
          ...
          So that revolution was driven by CARB requirements, not by any voluntary decision by carmakers. They preferred the cheap carburetors they were used to....
          Not really- fuel injection was developed by car makers before CARB requirements took effect. The push to mass market was definitely influenced by CARB but technology to meet those requirements already existed otherwise no new cars could be sold. Wikipedia says Ford's first fuel-injected car was the Ford Capri RS 2600 in 1970. To make that happen they should've started its development few years earlier and relevant research- even before that. CARB was created in 1967 and the first requirement to have 2 way catalytic converter still compatible with carburetor cars went into effect in 1975. The 3 way converters requiring precise AFR control became requirement from 1981, 11 years after the Ford's injection car went into production. If anything CARB was using results of development which was going on anyway.

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          • #50
            Changing hats here. Fuel injection development was very much limited by the technology available. Diesels
            used it, maybe the first gas was mechanical so German fighters got fuel in any maneuver. Mechanical
            was quite crude (no matter how cool it looked). Electronic injection started using a few transistors, but no
            feedback loops, no ignition control, no complex functions. The INTEGRATED CIRCUIT, first common in the
            70s, allowed the hundreds of transistors needed to do much. They were upgraded to microprocessors in the
            80s for essentially unlimited possibilities. Meantime sensors were needed for feedback loops. The MAP
            sensor used in 75 Cadillacs IMO was the first really up to the job. Good OX sensors closed the first loop,
            lots more followed.

            My experience is the first Cad EFI was a big improvement in emissions; later lots of other stuff (ignition
            timing mapping, transmission control, etc, etc) soon followed. The stuff on the earliest EFI looks strange
            today; I've been helping keep those 70s EFI Cads on the road. Bruce Roe

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            • #51
              Originally posted by max2k View Post
              Not really- fuel injection was developed by car makers before CARB requirements took effect.
              Well, it was developed way before that. Diesels used fuel injection well before 1900, and aircraft started using it in (gasoline powered) aircraft around 1907. In World War II, most military fighter aircraft were fuel injected.

              After the war, car manufacturers started to use them for racing, but they were pretty bad. The first electronic fuel injector system suitable for ordinary vehicles came around 1957, but were pretty rare until the 1970's when emissions requirements drove manufacturers to more precise fuel systems.
              If anything CARB was using results of development which was going on anyway.
              Agreed there. One of the standards used for air quality regulations is BACT - "best available commercial technology." It's a principle that says it's unreasonable to require technology beyond what's commercially available. A good principle - when they stick to it, which they don't always do.

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              • #52
                First commercial fuel Injection was done by the French company called Antoinette in a V8 aircraft engine in 1902. By the 1920's fuel injection was in widespread commercial use, and every diesel engine since then have been fuel injected. Like most everything in a car today from from Aircraft industry. Turbocharging and fuel injection is what allowed WW-II aircraft to fly as high and fast as they did. Anti-lock brakes come from aircraft industry, Composite materials come from aircraft industry. When you step back and look at technology, most of what we think our generation developed was not. WW-II ere was the greatest technology leaps and advances known to man. Only thing that comes close is NASA especially in material sciences, rocket engines, and telemetry.

                Care to guess where solar PV panels came from? They have been around 160 years, and not much of anything has changed. Edward Weston holds the first patent in 1888. In 1054 Bell Labs was the first to make the modern Silicon PV cell we still use today in 1954. Western Electric a Bell company made the first commercial application dollar bill changers and punch card tape reader in 1955. In 1958 solar panels went into space to power the first satellite.

                MSEE, PE

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                • #53
                  I don't think you can build a diesel without fuel injection, but don't confuse any of those early
                  MECHANICAL systems with ELECTRONIC fuel injection.

                  WWII aircraft were only capable of high altitude performance with some kind of boost. Boost from
                  turbo chargers or superchargers or both, and the 130 octane gas we developed helped. Fortunately
                  for this side the R2800 (2000 to 2800 hp radial) came out just in time, and enabled a performance
                  leap ahead for subsequent aircraft. Boost with water injection got you off the ground, then boost at
                  high altitude kept the power coming. My father taught carb servicing for R2800s, US didn't have any
                  fuel injected aircraft.

                  Unfortunately, the uninformed public has no idea how much of the technology they love is directly
                  developed from that conflict. Bruce Roe

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                    Unfortunately, the uninformed public has no idea how much of the technology they love is directly developed from that conflict. Bruce Roe
                    Heck, most of our space program came from there; the Apollo program was a direct descendant of the Peenemunde people.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                      I don't think you can build a diesel without fuel injection, but don't confuse any of those early
                      MECHANICAL systems with ELECTRONIC fuel injection.
                      All deisel engines are fuel injected, even the one Rudolph invented using peanut oil as fuel

                      Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                      WWII aircraft were only capable of high altitude performance with some kind of boost. Boost from
                      turbo chargers or superchargers or both, and the 130 octane gas we developed helped. Fortunately
                      for this side the R2800 (2000 to 2800 hp radial) came out just in time, and enabled a performance
                      leap ahead for subsequent aircraft. Boost with water injection got you off the ground, then boost at
                      high altitude kept the power coming. My father taught carb servicing for R2800s, US didn't have any
                      fuel injected aircraft.
                      All true but might lead some to the wrong conclusion.

                      The very first plane ever made by the Wright Brothers was Fuel Injected using the Antoinette engine I mentioned earlier. True US WW-II planes were not fuel injected, but German Aircraft were and the reason why the German Aircraft were superior. Fuel injected engines did not have G Lock issues as carbureted systems had. One of the spoils of war was german Bosch company who made the fuel injection systems for Germany. We took Bosch along with Von Braun and all of Germany's scientist back to the USA. Germany should have won the war easily if Hitler would have listened.
                      MSEE, PE

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                        All deisel engines are fuel injected, even the one Rudolph invented using peanut oil as fuel

                        All true but might lead some to the wrong conclusion.

                        The very first plane ever made by the Wright Brothers was Fuel Injected using the Antoinette engine I mentioned earlier. True US WW-II planes were not fuel injected, but German Aircraft were and the reason why the German Aircraft were superior. Fuel injected engines did not have G Lock issues as carbureted systems had. One of the spoils of war was german Bosch company who made the fuel injection systems for Germany. We took Bosch along with Von Braun and all of Germany's scientist back to the USA. Germany should have won the war easily if Hitler would have listened.

                        The Allied Operation Paperclip recruited a lot of Germans, but others ended up in Russia. Its been said
                        if the Axis had done everything right and the Allies everything wrong, the Axis would have won. But that
                        isn't what happened. After several desperate years, UK-US technology had matched or far surpassed the
                        Axis in most matters. They had the V2, but without todays guidance systems it was only good for terror.
                        The 88 was the best gun, but for every one we built dozens. Bruce Roe

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                          All deisel engines are fuel injected, even the one Rudolph invented using peanut oil as fuel

                          All true but might lead some to the wrong conclusion.

                          The very first plane ever made by the Wright Brothers was Fuel Injected using the Antoinette engine I mentioned earlier. True US WW-II planes were not fuel injected, but German Aircraft were and the reason why the German Aircraft were superior. Fuel injected engines did not have G Lock issues as carbureted systems had. One of the spoils of war was german Bosch company who made the fuel injection systems for Germany. We took Bosch along with Von Braun and all of Germany's scientist back to the USA. Germany should have won the war easily if Hitler would have listened.
                          and if Germans didn't wonder into Russia- they were stopped there at the end of 1941 at huge costs but nonetheless. If Germans behaved like liberators when they went into Russia instead of occupants Stalin would have much more trouble convincing ppl to die for him. None of this happened and "history doesn't know 'subjunctive mood'" as they say.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                            Just wanted to make sure you knew. Sad thing it is going away. New piston civilian aircraft burn diesel, errr I mean Jet A fuel. AV gas only has one supplier today and real expensive as I guess you know. Damn Employment Prevention Agency. Where I live at least we get real gasoline in octane up to 101.

                            If you talk to any small engine mechanic, you learn never ever use gasoline with ethanol. Honda, Stihl, and Echo even warn against using ethanol. Pure gas with 89 octane Even your vehicle engine will do much better without it.
                            Yeah down here in Florida they sell 90 octane recreational fuel with no ethanol.

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                            • #59
                              Miami of all places wow. https://futurism.com/this-u-s-city-n...new-homes/amp/

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