Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Usual price shopping/bid opinions wanted

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Usual price shopping/bid opinions wanted

    Another solar bid to look at.......sorry.

    My usage is 12500kwh a year. All bids and systems were designed with 100% offset in mind. We have an independent roofer who will do a new roof where the panels are going and install the mounts for $4500.

    3 quotes, two different companies

    1. 6.72kw --- 21 320w sunpower panels, sunpower micro inverters, new MSP to 200amp, $4500 in roofing, for $30K.

    2. 7.54kw --- 26 Solarworld 290w panels, P300 Power Optimizers with a SolarEdge 7600A us inverter, and new MSP to 200amp, $4500 in roofing for $31698.

    3. 8.12kw --- 28 Solarworld 290w mono clear solar panels. P300 Power Optimizers with a SolarEdge 7600A us inverter, MSP to 200amp, $4500 in roofing for $33577.


    Opinions wanted on cost and quality of products being proposed.

    Of course any help is greatly appreciated. The packages will be subject to a 30% credit.

    Thank you for your thoughts and time.
    Last edited by cioppino; 09-29-2016, 11:12 AM.

  • #2
    Since you ask:
    1.) Is quote #2 for 24 panels or 26 panels ?
    2.) The $4,500 for roofing may not be eligible for tax credit. I'd not assume so without checking. Situations and eligibility can vary.
    3.) While not endorsing a 100 % offset, systems of equal electrical size and orientation produce about equal annual output. So, why the different system sizes ?
    4.) After the clarification on # 2, w/ a new panel, depending on where you are, the pricing may not be too bad. However, the goal of 100% offset is a bit unrealistic for a 6.72 STC kW system. that's 1860 kWh/yr. per STC kW and pretty optimistic. The $3.79/Watt with the roof expense removed is also quite a bit lower than other Sunpower systems. Similar to paying Ford prices for a Mercedes might make you wonder what 's going on.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks J.P.M.

      It is 26 panels on number 2. The different size systems come from different companies trying to achieve the same goal. Option 2 and 3 are the same company, but the smaller system is done for budget reasons.

      What do you think of optimizers vrs micros?

      Also my property will have the panels facing south with all day complete sun exposure. Our region is rated at 2000kwh a year.

      Do you think 1 or 2 more panels will be better on system 1?

      Thanks again.

      Btw my pricing is reflecting a supposed industry discount. I'm a General Contractor specializing in energy upgrades other than solar. I wasn't sure if they were actually giving me a break or not on deal 1.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by cioppino View Post
        Thanks J.P.M.

        It is 26 panels on number 2. The different size systems come from different companies trying to achieve the same goal. Option 2 and 3 are the same company, but the smaller system is done for budget reasons.

        What do you think of optimizers vrs micros?

        Also my property will have the panels facing south with all day complete sun exposure. Our region is rated at 2000kwh a year.

        Do you think 1 or 2 more panels will be better on system 1?

        Thanks again.

        Btw my pricing is reflecting a supposed industry discount. I'm a General Contractor specializing in energy upgrades other than solar. I wasn't sure if they were actually giving me a break or not on deal 1.
        You're welcome.

        So what is the goal ? 100% Offset, or something else.

        Unless you're on top of a high, cold, arid mountain and the array is on a two axis gimbal, I flatly do not believe 2,000 kWh/yr. per STC kW is possible on a long term basis.

        If in the U.S, what's your zip ? Run PVWatts yourself with a 10% system loss parameter and see what you get.

        Since you ask: Opinions vary some , but if you face an array south, with little shade, I see no need for micros and not much more for optimizers. I like keeping things as simple as possible. To me, one string inverter per system is less complicated with less to go wrong than one inverter for each of, say, 20 panels. Also, I'd rather have one inverter that's easily accessible in a garage and out of the elements of heat/cold moisture/critters/etc. as on a roof. Fewer parts = lower probability of failure. Less hassle to get at as well.

        On pricing, I'm not very familiar with levels of OEM or contractor pricing in the PV business, but except possibly for the Sunpower pricing you report, the other two prices look pretty retail or end user to me.

        FWIW, in my area, Sunpower systems run about $4.50+/Watt to homeowners. Contractor pricing may help explain some of the Sunpower pricing you report. Other quality stuff runs ~ $3.25 - $3.5/Watt depending on particulars and how sharp the negotiating can make the vendor's pencils, exclusive of other improvements like elec. panel upgrades. Of course, the solar ignorant can and do get screwed on a regular basis.

        On I or 2 more panels: Since you ask, neither one, but I do not know your particulars. In any case, I do not believe a 100% offset system makes the best economic sense in most situations. Besides, it is not the number of panels - It's the size of the system that provides the most long term bang for the buck that counts. A 5 kW system with 20 ea. 300 Watt panels will have about the same output as a 5 kW system with 24 ea. 250 Watt panels +/- a bit. The 20 panel system may very well cost less because of racking/wiring/assembly/etc., but at the end of the analysis, most long term bang for the buck with some subjective $$ value assigned for PITA factors is usually one of the design objectives.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree inverters are a bit unnecessary with our layout. For resale value a system with Micros would be more appealing to the general public.
          After I factor in our rebate, system 1 will cost around 3.12kw.

          I'm in San Diego. We can realistically expect 1850kwh year here. 3 rows of 7 panels will be just fine. The company trying to sell the 26 or 28 panel array is over killing it to make more $$$$ it seems.

          If we can produce 90% I'd be happy. I appreciate your experienced educated responses. Has helped simplify my decision.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cioppino View Post
            I agree inverters are a bit unnecessary with our layout. For resale value a system with Micros would be more appealing to the general public.
            After I factor in our rebate, system 1 will cost around 3.12kw.

            I'm in San Diego. We can realistically expect 1850kwh year here. 3 rows of 7 panels will be just fine. The company trying to sell the 26 or 28 panel array is over killing it to make more $$$$ it seems.

            If we can produce 90% I'd be happy. I appreciate your experienced educated responses. Has helped simplify my decision.
            What any PV system does to a residential resale value is, it seems, a matter of some conjecture. I'm not sure having micros or a string inverter influences that value much with the average home buyer. FWIW, I'd still skip the micros based on the reliability and PITA factor, but thatagain, is opinion and preference.

            On the after rebate price, I'll reiterate the idea that things not associated with the PV system like a new roof beyond repairs necessary to make the PV work may/may be tax credit eligible items. Just sayin'.

            I too am in San Diego (92026) with a system that has produced 1,789 kWh/yr. per D.C. kW with about 4 % losses for late afternoon shading over 1075 days. I believe your 1,850 kWh/yr. per kW is doable.

            Good luck.

            Comment


            • #7
              The tax eligibility of items related to solar is going to be a real IRS issue sooner than later IMO. Many people utilizing hero and other similar programs are writing off the entire system. Stating that solar is a repair to the existing electrical system and not a completely new item. I for one think that is careless and wrong. I bet the IRS would agree. Going to be some upset homeowners once audits occur. Wouldn't doubt the IRS starts a division dedicated to solar audits.

              San Diego is awesome except for the traffic, crowds at the beach, huge water bills, high priced electric, high priced homes, illegal immigration, crappie public schools, and two sports franchises that cant win a thing. Lol.
              Gotta love America's Finest City

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by cioppino View Post
                The tax eligibility of items related to solar is going to be a real IRS issue sooner than later IMO. Many people utilizing hero and other similar programs are writing off the entire system. Stating that solar is a repair to the existing electrical system and not a completely new item. I for one think that is careless and wrong. I bet the IRS would agree. Going to be some upset homeowners once audits occur. Wouldn't doubt the IRS starts a division dedicated to solar audits.

                San Diego is awesome except for the traffic, crowds at the beach, huge water bills, high priced electric, high priced homes, illegal immigration, crappie public schools, and two sports franchises that cant win a thing. Lol.
                Gotta love America's Finest City
                So move to someplace like Buffalo. From what you write, it sounds like it has most of what you're missing. No traffic. No crowded beaches. 20 % of the world's fresh water at your tap, unmetered. Ave. elec. rates. LOW home prices. Not many illegals compared to San Diego. Some of the best public schools in the nation provided your in the burbs. Two major sports franchises that are often/usually contenders. Free bonus: A great bar scene and women with (for some reason) killer bodies and attitudes.

                Then, discover every year has something like 5 - 6 months of a running war with the weather called winter, where an orange disk appears in the sky about 15-20 % of the time from mid Nov. to mid Feb. w/frequent streaks of 10-14 days of no sunshine at all. Add the blizzards and city closures due to the weather and two extremely sloppy and windy shoulder seasons. Cabin fever is a common malady along around Jan. 15

                And, some of the nicest folks on the planet who, with their class ,ALMOST, but not quite make the winter's more tolerable (Honest).

                Pay your money, take your choice. There ain't no perfect place to live. I've lived in both places. I'm staying in San Diego. My friends from Buffalo make winter reservations at my house to escape and patch up their psyches.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cioppino View Post
                  San Diego is awesome except for the traffic, crowds at the beach, huge water bills, high priced electric, high priced homes, illegal immigration, crappie public schools, and two sports franchises that cant win a thing.
                  You forgot the wildfires and earthquakes.

                  On the plus side, the beer is great.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Never mind my comment below --I'm sorry I didn't realize it included roof cost and panel upgrade costs...

                    I fail to understand why the quotes look so expensive on such a big system.i didn't do the math but appears every options is >$3/watt... sorry I feel op is being taken for a ride
                    Last edited by kgvenkatesh; 09-30-2016, 12:55 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for the input kg. I have gotten a total of five estimates for this job. The first one being the best for roof and quality panels. I have yet to get a price for

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok, now I did some math, so feeling empowered to share my thoughts more strongly

                        Thought #1 : if I set aside $4500 for roof work and $1500 for elec panel upgrade, your first option comes to $3.6/watt for sunpower which sounds reasonable (for sunpower) IMO. By the same logic other two options float at $3.40/watt for solarworld which sound expensive. My reference is my own experience with multiple quotes (recently posted) and also what I read from this forum.

                        Thought #2: Why pay premium for sunpower, and why not take more quotes to see cheaper but still reliable brands? I am settling for LG because I think they would still be around 10 or 20 yrs from now, while some solar-specific brands may not. You seem open on panel brands, hence suggesting.

                        Thought #3: I have a lower usage (7200 kWh) and my utility rates are expensive (Bay Area , PG&E), yet found offsetting at 100 percent didn't make perfect economic sense. Assuming TOU rates, solar offset for peak/partial peak usage alone might come ahead on economics and save you some $$$ on total investment. I have an excel math simulation if you want to utilize.

                        Thought #4: Typically solar installer pricing includes mounting, so wondering if you can trim roof installer cost ($4500) by removing mounting from their scope?

                        Thought #5: Get more quotes to see some price competition, but only from good solid installers depending on your location. You'd find great info/suggestions if you look around I this forum. I got some if my quotes directly and some via referral and some via bidding marketplace.

                        Hope this helps. Keep in mind I'm a solar newbie and no pro, but just sharing what I learned in the process.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The roof is $4200 without the solar work $4500 with. That was a friend's quote. The large solar companies roofer came in at the same price in quote 1. The panel upgrade here is costing $2200. We asked for extra work to be done, we have an electric vehicle and have a charging station to install. The rest is the solar. So solar system 1 costs $23,300. Not sure how to calculate that all down.lol.

                          I am open to other options, but if I can pay less for a better product it's an easy decision. I looked into LG, Canadian, and Solarworld to lower costs. I have found the difference not sufficient enough to go away from what is considered a top brand.

                          I am waiting to find out about eliminating micro inverters to lower cost further.

                          Thank you. Meeting another company today.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X