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  • #16
    Originally posted by Engineer View Post

    Evenings, nights and mornings most days, as I live in a coastal area that is hot during the day and cool at night. It uses very little power though, 60W on the lowest setting I believe, and I keep it on the first two settings. Cool nighttime air is a natural resource around here, I harvest it for cheap.
    Amen. Thank you. Read (to me) like you might be running it during the heat of the day.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Engineer View Post

      My dear boy don't you know electricity is fungible?

      My neighbor, not having a whole house fan as I do, uses is AC all the time. Being the lowest impedance source no doubt I'm feeding his panel. But since my house is cool and I'm TOU, my usage is quite low during peak solar. Meanwhile - here's the key point - less NG was used to produce electricity as my panels made up for it. Late in the day my house is heated up and his is quite cool, so I crank up the power usage and am using NG generated electricity, which was saved (due to the fungibility) during the day.

      Let's not argue about NG plant efficiencies, peak power generation and the like, the point being that yes at the end of the year I am removed from the fossil fuel generation equation, even though some of my electrons came from a NG plant. Makes no difference, just as using your credit card is no different than cash.



      Now now, be nice.
      So where do you get your power during the days when the sun isn't shining? Don't tell me it is from RE or if you always get enough sunlight to power everything.

      Even Germany produces over 50% of their power from coal and they have a very large portion of their power coming from RE.

      So forgive me if I feel you are deceiving yourself into thinking you are not using or you are "removed" from fossil fuel.
      Last edited by SunEagle; 06-13-2016, 12:23 PM. Reason: spelling

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Engineer View Post
        Your power usage before/after solar?
        On the first house I owned, I installed solar almost right away after moving in - so I didn't have good data. We didn't have A/C so our bills were low to begin with. A 3.4KW system covered almost all our usage.

        Our second house was a more interesting story. When we moved in, it had a very old (but working) 10kW solar system. It was enough to bring the previous owners down into the lower tiers, but they were still using ~60kwhr a day. We installed setback thermostats, switched to CFL and LED lighting, reprogrammed the pool pump etc and brought consumption down to about 18kwhr/day. At that point we were generating almost twice what we used.

        So we got an EV. Then we had two kids. And consumption climbed up to about 25 kwhr a day. We are now just about zeroed out in terms of generation. We still generate a bit more than we use.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
          On the first house I owned, I installed solar almost right away after moving in - so I didn't have good data. We didn't have A/C so our bills were low to begin with. A 3.4KW system covered almost all our usage.

          Our second house was a more interesting story. When we moved in, it had a very old (but working) 10kW solar system. It was enough to bring the previous owners down into the lower tiers, but they were still using ~60kwhr a day. We installed setback thermostats, switched to CFL and LED lighting, reprogrammed the pool pump etc and brought consumption down to about 18kwhr/day. At that point we were generating almost twice what we used.

          So we got an EV. Then we had two kids. And consumption climbed up to about 25 kwhr a day. We are now just about zeroed out in terms of generation. We still generate a bit more than we use.
          FWIW, I can report similar usage and scenario without the children. Question: Does current annual generation match annual usage ? A 10 kW system, even a bit long in the tooth ought to be good for > (25)*(365) = 9,125 kWh/yr., in most places. I get that out of a 5 kW system.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
            FWIW, I can report similar usage and scenario without the children. Question: Does current annual generation match annual usage ? A 10 kW system, even a bit long in the tooth ought to be good for > (25)*(365) = 9,125 kWh/yr., in most places. I get that out of a 5 kW system.
            We are just about matching production for this year. Part of the reason for this is that my house is a test bed for an adaptive power control system that my company is working on, and while it now works pretty well, during the startup phase they were sometimes using 80kwhr a day. (They'd do things like set the pool pump on maximum speed and then the system would crash, and the software guy would forget to tell me, so it would run that way for 30 hours.)

            Once we are back to normal I expect to see a surplus again.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
              We are just about matching production for this year. Part of the reason for this is that my house is a test bed for an adaptive power control system that my company is working on, and while it now works pretty well, during the startup phase they were sometimes using 80kwhr a day. (They'd do things like set the pool pump on maximum speed and then the system would crash, and the software guy would forget to tell me, so it would run that way for 30 hours.)

              Once we are back to normal I expect to see a surplus again.
              It is nice to be part of the research but I would also hate to be the guinea pig for something that might be painful.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                So where do you get your power during the days when the sun isn't shining?...
                You still don't understand fungibility ... rather than explain it to you, which can be had from some study and thought, I'll point out the possible flaw in this, which relates to the fallacy of composition. Yes, the fact is that I am carbon free, no matter that sometimes the power comes from NG plants. Just like with a bank you don't get back the exact physical dollar bills that you gave it, with electricity it doesn't matter where it comes from, just the net usage. However (here comes the fallacy and possibly the flaw in your thinking), what is true for me isn't true for the state of California. If everybody did what I do it wouldn't work, and would play out as you indicate. Even with 100% solar clearly the state has to use NG at off solar times since it can't store anything.

                Which is why I'm just talking about my carbon footprint being zero (electricity wise), not state wide. However, that's just a technology problem. Given enough storage (which doesn't exist), or a geographically diverse enough grid (which is in progress) that problem goes away, but that's a different topic.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Engineer View Post

                  You still don't understand fungibility ... rather than explain it to you, which can be had from some study and thought, I'll point out the possible flaw in this, which relates to the fallacy of composition. Yes, the fact is that I am carbon free, no matter that sometimes the power comes from NG plants. Just like with a bank you don't get back the exact physical dollar bills that you gave it, with electricity it doesn't matter where it comes from, just the net usage. However (here comes the fallacy and possibly the flaw in your thinking), what is true for me isn't true for the state of California. If everybody did what I do it wouldn't work, and would play out as you indicate. Even with 100% solar clearly the state has to use NG at off solar times since it can't store anything.

                  Which is why I'm just talking about my carbon footprint being zero (electricity wise), not state wide. However, that's just a technology problem. Given enough storage (which doesn't exist), or a geographically diverse enough grid (which is in progress) that problem goes away, but that's a different topic.
                  So what is so different for you that your carbon footprint is zero? (which I really don't care about but that is another topic) Where do you get your power from at night or during rainy days?

                  Is it from some other RE source that is running 24/7 or is it a contract from a supplier that says it is 100% RE?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                    We are just about matching production for this year. Part of the reason for this is that my house is a test bed for an adaptive power control system that my company is working on, and while it now works pretty well, during the startup phase they were sometimes using 80kwhr a day. (They'd do things like set the pool pump on maximum speed and then the system would crash, and the software guy would forget to tell me, so it would run that way for 30 hours.)

                    Once we are back to normal I expect to see a surplus again.
                    I think I understand. Thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Engineer View Post
                      Just like with a bank you don't get back the exact physical dollar bills that you gave it, with electricity it doesn't matter where it comes from, just the net usage.
                      The two cases are not quite the same. You actually use electricity; you purchase it and turn it into heat which is dissipated, in the process (hopefully) doing something useful for you. It can not remain imaginary, nor can it be effectively "banked." Compare that to money. Not only do you not get the exact dollar bills, in many cases there is no paper money at all. I get paid, and pay my mortgage, without ever seeing a dollar bill (or even a paper representation, like a check.) I can save large amounts without "running out of storage." I can, in some cases, go negative with the amount of money I have (i.e. loans) This works because money in modern banking systems is almost totally impalpable.

                      To put it another way, I only get paid every two weeks; imagine only getting your electricity delivered once every two weeks. That would not work well for you. You are willing to pay for power that can be delivered continuously and in whatever quantity (to the limits of your service) that you require. And that, in turn, requires that someone else build power plants to supply you when your solar system is unable to. Those power plants (in California at least) generate carbon dioxide. Thus your use of power at night incurs carbon emissions in _reality_, no matter what you do during the day.

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                      • #26
                        Our consumption of energy is slightly up.

                        We converted to LEDs and energy-star appliances before. We were also using oil lamps a lot [due to power outages].

                        We have two ceiling fans and a circulator pump [that moves water from woodstove to thermal bank to radiant floor]. These are pretty much continuous loads. Except for during power outages obviously.

                        But now that we are on solar power. My wife bought a dishwasher. She is convinced that a dishwasher uses less water. So now every morning the sun is out, the dishwasher is running.

                        The biggest feature to account for why we use more electricity now is that we no longer have power outages. When the grid is down and you rely on the grid, obviously you do not use much power during that period of time each month.
                        4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

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                        • SunEagle
                          SunEagle commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Finding ways to conserve electricity, water or any other type of resource is a smart action. Sometimes conserving one type will increase the use of another. It is a give and take process to find a balance of what you need to be comfortable and what you can keep from being wasted.

                          It is a shame that you have to give up a secure power system due to the grid issues but I guess living where you are has a lot of pluses and beauty.

                      • #27
                        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                        So what is so different for you that your carbon footprint is zero? (which I really don't care about but that is another topic) Where do you get your power from at night or during rainy days?

                        Is it from some other RE source that is running 24/7 or is it a contract from a supplier that says it is 100% RE?
                        We're probably beating a dead topic as you aren't following fungibility. I think you're thinking the composition of fallacy which isn't applicable, but this has been covered elsewhere.

                        Anyhow yes it so happens that my city switched to a 60% renewable supplier and so when I'm pulling from the grid it's 'coming' from them. But then again, it's not, the current sources only care about impedances, really it's an accounting matter involving (wait for it) - the fungibility of electricity. I can switch to their 100% renewable plan which is a little more expensive, but since I'm consuming all my own power I'm not sure what the point is.

                        The sources are primarily hydro and wind for the 60%, and geothermal for 100%. Oh yes, I live by geothermal plants (within 30 miles), so maybe that'll make you happy for my nighttime usage, but I give up otherwise.

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                        • #28
                          Originally posted by Engineer View Post

                          We're probably beating a dead topic as you aren't following fungibility. I think you're thinking the composition of fallacy which isn't applicable, but this has been covered elsewhere.

                          Anyhow yes it so happens that my city switched to a 60% renewable supplier and so when I'm pulling from the grid it's 'coming' from them. But then again, it's not, the current sources only care about impedances, really it's an accounting matter involving (wait for it) - the fungibility of electricity. I can switch to their 100% renewable plan which is a little more expensive, but since I'm consuming all my own power I'm not sure what the point is.

                          The sources are primarily hydro and wind for the 60%, and geothermal for 100%. Oh yes, I live by geothermal plants (within 30 miles), so maybe that'll make you happy for my nighttime usage, but I give up otherwise.
                          Then I would say you are correct and can claim being as close to having a Zero Carbon footprint as anyone. Most people can't make that claim or just like to boast that they are "green" because they do not have a large selection of RE resources to get their power from.

                          So I thank you for the information you have provided and apologize for brow beating you concerning your power usage.

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