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  • Markyrocks69
    Solar Fanatic
    • Jun 2019
    • 226

    Really mind boggling problem

    Hi. New user here. Ty for any help in advance. I'll try my best to keep this as simple and short as possible.

    So I bought 2x used sma sunnyboy 9000tlus-10 off of Ebay like 6 months ago. They were listed as -12 and even came in a -12 box. These were the inverters I planned my entire system around. This is important to my issue bc these inverters basically required a combiner box and one set of conductors ran to the DC side of the inverter....

    I have 60 sunpower 340 watt panels on a ground mount like 100ft away from my house. The combiner boxes are at the array and then the 2 sets of conductors go underground into the house to the 2 inverters (or at least where they used to be sigh)

    So to the issue. to keep it short we'll just say the original inverters don't work for my application. So I purchased 2x sma sb.xxxxx. 7.7 kw models. The difference between these and the 9000's is the 7.7 have 3x string inputs that can only be like 10 amps @ roughly 580v. So connecting my already combined conductors that are roughly 25amps @425v wont work. Now remind you these lines are underground and 150ft in length.

    I've come up with a couple of solutions on my end. Either I can replace the combiner with an inverter and then use the existing lines to bring the ac into the house. The problem with this arrangement is to the grounding. I can get grounding out there but it would either be new rods or I'd have to dig a long trench and run a ground to my existing ground rods. The underground lines I had pulled 2 conductors as grounds initially but I'd need to use those as neutrals in this scenario.
    Another issue with this scenario is how do I fuse the strings if they go from the panels to the inverter? The other purpose of the existing combiner is to fuse each conductor coming off the strings.

    A different solution I came up with is to leave the original combiner, where the DC comes in I'd have to then UNcombine the string using lusing enclosure a busbar and fuse holders to turn one set of conductors back into 3 sets (2 and 6 total for both). This seems plausible but its highly doubtful I'll be ul compliant bc the available equipment just isn't designed to work in reverse like this. Also an issue is money, this is probably the most expensive solution. Midnite solar sells combiner boxes that are like 150$ a piece plus I'd need to buy the fuse holders and the fuses. This could end up costing 500 or more. I thought about just using power distribution blocks or something but the out going smaller conductors need some kinda protection.

    I'm just flabbergasted that they designed 2 different generations in completely opposite ways. I couldnt imagine having a system put in 10 years ago and the inverter dying and needing to replace with a newer model and having to reconfigure this much stuff. Any help would be great. Theres obviously more equipment in my system than I described in this post but I just left that stuff out bc it really has no bearing on what I need to do. If anyone wants more information I'd be more than happy to provide it. Ty.
  • bcroe
    Solar Fanatic
    • Jan 2012
    • 5198

    #2
    Check if your inverter is like mine. It has multiple, individually fused inputs so it
    can act like a combiner. HOWEVER it is possible to put metal jumpers into
    several fuse positions, then insert a jumper bar into those inputs. The large
    feed (up to inverter capacity) connects to the jumper bar. Bruce Roe

    Comment

    • Markyrocks69
      Solar Fanatic
      • Jun 2019
      • 226

      #3
      Originally posted by bcroe
      Check if your inverter is like mine. It has multiple, individually fused inputs so it
      can act like a combiner. HOWEVER it is possible to put metal jumpers into
      several fuse positions, then insert a jumper bar into those inputs. The large
      feed (up to inverter capacity) connects to the jumper bar. Bruce Roe
      That would be fantastic. The inverters just came today so I guess I could crack one open and see if any optional hardware like that is included. The more I think about this issue I know for a fact with high voltage DC ungrounded setup every conductor is required to be fused. This requirement could be met at a safety switch or something but again I bought non fused safety switches. The 3 minute video on how to install the 7.7 doesn't even mention it..


      Edit. I had already looked at the installation manual and watched the video so I was fairly certain what the deal was with the 7.7 and ya there's no optional hardware. It's got 3 inputs and that's what have to work with. It shows that I can hook up 3 or more strings combined in parallel to the 2 main inputs but that doesn't really help me, I'd still need to split one set into 2.

      This is the installation video...

      Last edited by Markyrocks69; 06-18-2019, 08:31 PM.

      Comment

      • oregon_phil
        Solar Fanatic
        • Jan 2019
        • 496

        #4
        I wrote up a post today regarding the issues I'm having with my SMA 7.7. My installer thinks I got a lemon.

        Unlike the SMA 9000tlus-10, the SMA 7.7US has three independent MPP inputs (A,B,C) each rated at 10 amps maximum. Unfortunately, there is no combiner/jumper/fuse area inside the SMA 7.7. I have a roof installation with an SMA rapid shutdown on the roof, that combines three strings into two strings. The two strings are split back out into three strings using a polaris block inside the inverter. I effectively have at 2 MPP system.

        The manual explains how to use the inputs in parallel mode (see attached). This mode must not be too popular because it did cause some confusion during the initial start up. Remember, only 10amps max per input.
        Attached Files

        Comment

        • nwdiver
          Solar Fanatic
          • Mar 2019
          • 422

          #5
          Originally posted by Markyrocks69

          The more I think about this issue I know for a fact with high voltage DC ungrounded setup every conductor is required to be fused. This requirement could be met at a safety switch or something but again I bought non fused safety switches. The 3 minute video on how to install the 7.7 doesn't even mention it..
          That's incorrect. Solar Panels are current limiting. The purpose of a fuse is to protect the wire from over-current. If the short circuit rating of the panel is 10A then there's no way exceed the current rating of wire rated to 20A => no fuse is required (Plus a 15A fuse would literally never do anything....). The only time you need fuses in PV circuits is if you have 3 or more strings in parallel because in the event of a fault 2 strings can back-feed one potentially causing an over-current condition. If each string is on an independent MPPT like with the SMA inverter that IS NOT considered parallel.
          Last edited by nwdiver; 06-19-2019, 12:26 AM.

          Comment

          • Markyrocks69
            Solar Fanatic
            • Jun 2019
            • 226

            #6
            Originally posted by nwdiver

            That's incorrect. Solar Panels are current limiting. The purpose of a fuse is to protect the wire from over-current. If the short circuit rating of the panel is 10A then there's no way exceed the current rating of wire rated to 20A => no fuse is required (Plus a 15A fuse would literally never do anything....). The only time you need fuses in PV circuits is if you have 3 or more strings in parallel because in the event of a fault 2 strings can back-feed one potentially causing an over-current condition. If each string in on an independent MPPT like with the SMA inverter that IS NOT considered parallel.
            Well idk where you're getting this information from but the combiner made by sma that I have literally has up to 6 string inputs and each + and - has a fuse. Every piece of literature that I've read about this issue says that every string in and ungrounded system requires a fuse on both sides. Whether its redundant or not. Not like I'm just pulling requirements out of thin air. Even the documentation for any midnite solar combined box says the exact same thing. If its low voltage no fuse is required but if it's high voltage ungrounded system, absolutely required I'm 100% sure of this.

            Comment

            • nwdiver
              Solar Fanatic
              • Mar 2019
              • 422

              #7
              Originally posted by Markyrocks69

              Well idk where you're getting this information from but the combiner made by sma that I have literally has up to 6 string inputs and each + and - has a fuse. Every piece of literature that I've read about this issue says that every string in and ungrounded system requires a fuse on both sides. Whether its redundant or not. Not like I'm just pulling requirements out of thin air. Even the documentation for any midnite solar combined box says the exact same thing. If its low voltage no fuse is required but if it's high voltage ungrounded system, absolutely required I'm 100% sure of this.
              It's in the NEC. It makes sense if you think about it. If you have a string of panels that cannot exceed 10A because physics on a 20A wire you'd usually have a 15A fuse... what good is that fuse ever going to do? A short would be 10A....

              Yes... if you have an inverter designed to COMBINE 3 or more strings it will have fuses since they're required as mentioned above. The new SMA inverters have 3 independent MPPTs which is why they deleted the combiner box. It's not required. 1 or 2 strings do not require a OCPD.

              'One or two strings of modules do not require overcurrent devices, but three strings or more in parallel will usually require an overcurrent device. The module maximum series fuse must be at least 1.56 lsc.' - NEC 110.3(B)

              Last edited by nwdiver; 06-19-2019, 12:44 AM.

              Comment

              • Markyrocks69
                Solar Fanatic
                • Jun 2019
                • 226

                #8
                Originally posted by oregon_phil
                I wrote up a post today regarding the issues I'm having with my SMA 7.7. My installer thinks I got a lemon.

                Unlike the SMA 9000tlus-10, the SMA 7.7US has three independent MPP inputs (A,B,C) each rated at 10 amps maximum. Unfortunately, there is no combiner/jumper/fuse area inside the SMA 7.7. I have a roof installation with an SMA rapid shutdown on the roof, that combines three strings into two strings. The two strings are split back out into three strings using a polaris block inside the inverter. I effectively have at 2 MPP system.

                The manual explains how to use the inputs in parallel mode (see attached). This mode must not be too popular because it did cause some confusion during the initial start up. Remember, only 10amps max per input.
                Can you post up a link or a picture of the Polaris block?

                I've looked at the various configurations. Nothing there really helps me, it just sux bc I've been planning for a year or longer, been planning around these inverters for 6 months plus and in the past 3 weeks the who thing got a monkey wrench in it.

                Comment

                • Markyrocks69
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Jun 2019
                  • 226

                  #9
                  Originally posted by nwdiver

                  It's in the NEC. It makes sense if you think about it. If you have a string of panels that cannot exceed 10A because physics on a 20A wire you'd usually have a 15A fuse... what good is that fuse ever going to do? A short would be 10A....

                  Yes... if you have an inverter designed to COMBINE 3 or more strings it will have fuses since they're required as mentioned above. The new SMA inverters have 3 independent MPPTs which is why they deleted the combiner box. It's not required. 1 or 2 strings do not require a OCPD.
                  Well the 7.7 does have 3 string inputs but I guess the fact that they're independent probably means its impossible to back feed the other DC circuits so I guess I'll take your word for it. That's good news for me bc it's one less pita I have to deal with. Just alot of money wasted on combiner boxes and fuses if I'm going to end up having no use for this stuff.
                  Last edited by Markyrocks69; 06-19-2019, 12:57 AM.

                  Comment

                  • nwdiver
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Mar 2019
                    • 422

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Markyrocks69

                    What if 2 energized wires from different strings come in contact via metal framing....seems possible
                    Ok... current won't exceed ~10A... what good is a 15A fuse going to do? Any fuse in a series PV circuit will either be too small and blow under normal operation or too big to do anything if there's a short. Solar panels are current limiting. It's not like an AC circuit or battery where current is effectively endless...
                    Last edited by nwdiver; 06-19-2019, 12:48 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Markyrocks69
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Jun 2019
                      • 226

                      #11
                      Originally posted by nwdiver

                      Ok... current won't exceed ~10A... what good is a 15A fuse going to do? Any fuse in a series PV circuit will either be too small and blow under normal operation or too big to do anything if there's a short. Solar panels are current limiting. It's not like an AC circuit or battery where current is effectively endless...
                      Ok dude +1 for you. I'm not an electrical engineer I just want it to pass the inspection.

                      Comment

                      • Tecnodave
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Mar 2019
                        • 150

                        #12
                        I might mention that the SMA TL inverters are transformerless, fusing is required on the positive and negative wires as the p.v. input is not isolated from the AC output.

                        Comment

                        • nwdiver
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Mar 2019
                          • 422

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Markyrocks69

                          Ok dude +1 for you. I'm not an electrical engineer I just want it to pass the inspection.
                          Per the NEC fuses are not required if you're combining 1 or 2 strings. So you're good I haven't used a DC fuse for >2 years. Love the new multi-MPPT inverters

                          Originally posted by Tecnodave
                          I might mention that the SMA TL inverters are transformerless, fusing is required on the positive and negative wires as the p.v. input is not isolated from the AC output.
                          For ungrounded arrays of 3 or more strings fuses are required on the positive and negative but the same rules still apply for the same reason. 1 or 2 strings do not require fuses because they would do nothing...


                          'If there are no external current sources such as parallel connected source circuits, batteries, or backfeed from inverters, or if the short-circuit currents from all sources do not exceed the ampacity of the conductors and the maximum overcurrent device size specified on the PV module nameplate, then source circuit overcurrent protection is not required.' - NEC 690(E)

                          When series string fuse protection is required, it must be installed in each ungrounded conductor. If series string protection is not required, the factory installed dummy fuses can remain in place.
                          Last edited by nwdiver; 06-19-2019, 01:16 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Tecnodave
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Mar 2019
                            • 150

                            #14
                            On a transformer based inverter with one or two strings fusing the strings is not required, not so on a transformerless inverter due to the above mentioned coupling between the AC output and the p.v. input. What happens when a line spike fuses the FET's.......and the AC side breakers do not trip......AC is coupled back through the inverter to the p.v. input....fusing required.

                            Comment

                            • nwdiver
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Mar 2019
                              • 422

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tecnodave
                              On a transformer based inverter with one or two strings fusing the strings is not required, not so on a transformerless inverter due to the above mentioned coupling between the AC output and the p.v. input. What happens when a line spike fuses the FET's.......and the AC side breakers do not trip......AC is coupled back through the inverter to the p.v. input....fusing required.
                              That's covered under UL1741. There's nothing in the NEC requiring DC side fuses to cover an AC side fault...

                              Last edited by nwdiver; 06-19-2019, 01:28 AM.

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