Need Advice - First Time Buyer

[dss]

Hi,

I am a first time buyer, in the SF Bay Area. We use a lot of power (approx 15k kWhr a year with the recent addition of an EV). My local utility has a terrible buyback rate of $0.07 per kWh vs my Tier 3 usage rate of $0.26 per kWh with no current plans for time of day usage (which would help for my EV) so our approach is a bit more like glorified peak shaving.

I live in an older Victorian and the roof can fit about 18 panels comfortably. I have received multiple bids from local and well respected providers, most of which are somewhat similar in terms of approach, hardware, and pricing. The provider I am leaning towards shared the below proposals with me for either LG or SunPower panels (going with all black again for aesthetics). These proposals are all-in and include permits, inverter, and approx $3k of custom electrical to hide conduit, and again emphasizing a clean looking install.

I am leaning towards the LG for the value, but as a first time, novice buyer, am wondering if I am missing anything, and would really appreciate any suggestions or alternate panels to look at (another provider heavily recommended Panasonic), or questions/thoughts on how to think through the approach here. Any and all guidance is very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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[Mike90250]

Install it while you are still allowed to. Many "architectural" districts are banning PV panels.

[J.P.M.]

The total kW rating on the LG offering is incorrect on your table.

On price, you're not missing anything by avoiding the Sunpower offering except not getting ripped off. Panels are a commodity. Sunpower is good stuff, but no better than other quality panels, including Panasonic. In the same orientation and location all equal (electrical ) size systems will produce about equal amounts of power for as long as you're likely to own them. Save yourself a bunch of $$ and skip the Sunpower.

Still, with turnkey systems available for ~ $3.00 - $3.25/WTC watt before tax credit, unless you have some very unusual situations going on, you're paying WAY too much for either choice even in the bay area.

On saving money or just plain economic sense, I'd also suggest you look at the economics of putting panels facing NE. The lower tilt will help remove some of the penalty of way off south orientations, but even when priced right (which your quotes are not - by a lot - ) NE facing arrays have a tough time passing economic muster.

[dss]

Thanks, yes the LG will be a 5.76 KW system. And thank you for the insight on pricing, even factoring out $3k for electrical, that comes in at $3.95 per watt. It sounds like this is a roughly 25% premium over the market average, and no there is nothing unusual about our setup other than the interest in a clean/aesthetically pleasing install (which is already baked into the $3k of electrical).

Again, the guidance here is much appreciated.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks, yes the LG will be a 5.76 KW system. And thank you for the insight on pricing, even factoring out $3k for electrical, that comes in at $3.95 per watt. It sounds like this is a roughly 25% premium over the market average, and no there is nothing unusual about our setup other than the interest in a clean/aesthetically pleasing install (which is already baked into the $3k of electrical).

Again, the guidance here is much appreciated.

You're most welcome.

For your consideration:

1.) Buy/download and then read a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies". Free online download or ~$ 20 at amazon/bookstores. Pay careful attention to the parts about conservation and load reduction before adding PV. That's the cheapest, easiest and most cost effective way to reduce an electric bill. in contrast, PV is about the most expensive and so the last measure taken if cost effectiveness is one goal of the exercise or if it has any ranking in the priority list.
2.) Get your roof inspected/serviced. Cheap insurance. Solar will last a long time. Make sure the roof under it has the highest probability of lasting as long.
3.) I'd carefully examine the cost/benefits of any array with an azimuthal orientation < 90 deg. or > 270 deg. It's usually tough to make such arrays cost effective.
4.) Get more quotes, and for forget about Sunpower. It's simply not worth the premium. Also, the LG prices you report are not any better on a percentage basis when compared to other vendor's LG pricing.
5.) You will most likely be on some form of T.O.U. pricing. Inform yourself of your options and how you will be paying for electricity.
6.) Take an hour or less and confirm what the peddlers have told you. Get familiar and run PVWatts. It's a user friendly solar PV modeling program on the net. Read all the help/info screen a couple of times then make a few runs for each orientation. Use a 10% system loss parameter. Come back and ask questions after the self information.

Good luck.

[JSchnee21]

When (at what time of day) do you plan to charge your EV? If you only get $0.07 per kWH produced and you're charging your EV at night (which it sounds like) your array won't help very much to offset your consumption unless you either get conventional grid tie "credits" (aka 1kWh out = 1kWh in with some sort of true up frequency -- annually in my case) or you look at storage to bank your daytime production. If you're on a tariff model and only make $0.07 per kWh, it will take a very, very long time for you to break even.

[dss]

Thanks again for all of the insight. I will go ahead and do continued homework.

Our utility does not offer TOU pricing yet, though I just received a survey indicating they are looking into it as we have a significant (and quickly growing) EV population in our small city. We can charge our EV at any time, so given there is no TOU currently, our plan is to charge during daylight as often as possible (I would estimate that we could do that 90+% of the time).

We are definitely doing what we can to embrace load reduction, but even if we shave off 20% of our usage, that would bring us into (roughly) a 12k kWhr annual usage bank, which would then be offset by approx 7k kWhr of solar.

So yes, this is not an ideal scenario. One option would be to just go with the 10 SE LG roof panels and call it a day (our current preferred provider started with this recommendation actually) and just do a pure peak shave.

Thanks again, this is all very helpful. Off to do some homework!

[J.P.M.]

Thanks, yes the LG will be a 5.76 KW system. And thank you for the insight on pricing, even factoring out $3k for electrical, that comes in at $3.95 per watt. It sounds like this is a roughly 25% premium over the market average, and no there is nothing unusual about our setup other than the interest in a clean/aesthetically pleasing install (which is already baked into the $3k of electrical).

Again, the guidance here is much appreciated.

You're most welcome.

Please clarify what you mean when you write "buyback rate of $0.07/kWh". If your POCO is PG & E, you will only see that amount as a super off peak rate. Semi peak and peak rates will be much higher. Overgeneration (which it looks like you will not have) reimbursement rates are ~ $0.03 - $0.05/kWh. Review #5 below for clarification on how you are currently billed.

After that and otherwise for your consideration:

1.) Buy/download and then read a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies". Free online download or ~$ 20 at amazon/bookstores. Pay careful attention to the parts about conservation and load reduction before adding PV. That's the cheapest, easiest and most cost effective way to reduce an electric bill. in contrast, PV is about the most expensive and so the last measure taken if cost effectiveness is one goal of the exercise or if it has any ranking in the priority list.
2.) Get your roof inspected/serviced. Cheap insurance. Solar will last a long time. Make sure the roof under it has the highest probability of lasting as long.
3.) I'd carefully examine the cost/benefits of any array with an azimuthal orientation &lt; 90 deg. or &gt; 270 deg. It's usually tough to make such arrays cost effective.
4.) Get more quotes, and for forget about Sunpower. It's simply not worth the premium. Also, the LG prices you report are not any better on a percentage basis when compared to other vendor's LG pricing.
5.) You will most likely be on some form of T.O.U. pricing. Inform yourself of your options and how you will be paying for electricity.
6.) Take an hour or less and confirm what the peddlers have told you. Get familiar and run PVWatts. It's a user friendly solar PV modeling program on the net. Read all the help/info screen a couple of times then make a few runs for each orientation. Use a 10% system loss parameter. Come back and ask questions after the self information.

Good luck.

[dss]

I do not unfortunately have PGE, we have our own local utility (Alameda Municipal Power) and they sunset NEM two years ago.

This is their current plan:

• Customers will be paid monthly with a bill credit for the excess energy they deliver to AMP's power grid.
• The bill credit will amount to the cost of the renewable energy that AMP won't need to buy, as a result of using the customer's solar energy.
• You'll be billed monthly for the energy AMP delivers to you.
• Currently AMP provides compensation for the remaining credits that were not used at the rate of $0.06961 per kWh.

[JSchnee21]

"Currently AMP provides compensation for the remaining credits that were not used at the rate of $0.06961 per kWh"

Ok, so that makes it sound like you get kWh_out = kWh_in net-metering credits which are worth $0.26/kWh provided you use all you have made before the end of each month. Is that your understanding as well? I would suggest calling them to confirm this is in fact the case. Assuming this is true, no storage would be needed.

Given that your consumption is high and your PV production is fairly low (small array) monthly true up shouldn't negatively impact you very much (or at all). Perhaps only in April / May / June during peak production before heavy air conditioning is needed. But given how much power is needed to charge your EV, this may easily consume all of the production you would get from your array.

Still, it would be worth comparing your power usage by month, to a model of your planned PV production by month to verify that you won't be over producing too much in late Spring / early Summer.

In my case, I build up credits (a couple MWh) in March, April, May, June that carry me through Sept/Oct. So Monthly true ups would really screw me. Fortunately, my PoCo has annual true ups, and I get to choose (one time only per life of the system) my anniversary/ true up date.

Just curious, is your $0.26 / kWh all inclusive? (aka generation and transmission) or are there additional fees per kWh on top of that?

[J.P.M.]

I do not unfortunately have PGE, we have our own local utility (Alameda Municipal Power) and they sunset NEM two years ago.

This is their current plan:

• Customers will be paid monthly with a bill credit for the excess energy they deliver to AMP's power grid.
• The bill credit will amount to the cost of the renewable energy that AMP won't need to buy, as a result of using the customer's solar energy.
• You'll be billed monthly for the energy AMP delivers to you.
• Currently AMP provides compensation for the remaining credits that were not used at the rate of $0.06961 per kWh.

So, I dug a bit into AMP's web site, and doing that I think I've got their deal figured out (maybe)

1.) They're actually a pretty good deal for users. Seems like a fair deal to me but not real good for new PV users at this time.
2.) They do not have T.O.U. rates at this time.
3.) In their own words, they do not have net metering for new PV systems at this time.
3.) Apparently, all residential cust. pay $16.00/billing period plus what look like pretty cheap tier rates. Even their tier 3 is "only" $0.26491/kWh a comparative bargain relative to PG & E rates.
4.) As best as I can figure it (and I tend to be a bit cynical in my interpretations until disabused of such thinking):
a.) The only time a PV user will, in effect, get full retail "credit" (but not really a "credit") for a portion of system generation is when the PV system owner is consuming more power than the system is generating. In effect, under such conditions, the PV system generation offsets power and the cost of buying that power that is not purchased at retail rate. Under such conditions, the PV system generation offsets use "internally" first. Thus, AMD never "sees" that usage and so doesn't bill for something they don't know about and so don't deliver.
b.) Any NET excess that goes back to the grid in any 15 minute period is purchased by AMD at a (current) of $0.06961/kWh. No more than that.
c.) Bottom line looks to me like the user with a PV system will be billed on their net draw from AMD with the billing compiled in the same way as non PV users, less any credit figured as = (what's fed back to the grid in kWh per 15 min. period * $0.06961/kWh).
d.) My SWAG is that "what's fed back to the grid" will probably be figured as the sum of all the 15 minute period meter readings that are negative for any billing period.

If so, under such billing arrangements, and to the degree my way of seeing how AMP treats PV generation for residential customers, I kind of doubt PV will be cost effective for you.

As I see it, if my description above is a reasonable approximation of reality with AMP billing and PV, and unless their policies change, PV way not cost effective for AMP residential customers until residential energy storage gets way more practical, reliable, understood and cheap enough to enable a significant amount of several days of total use (3-5 days total use maybe ?) to be stored on site. I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Ampster]

Install it while you are still allowed to. Many "architectural" districts are banning PV panels.

In California, the Solar Rights Act prevents any HOA or architectural Committee from banning solar. I know because mine tried 5 years ago and if I had reported them they would have received a $1,000 fine for not responding in 45 days. They were trying to stonewall me.

[Mike90250]

The actual wording they use is "Visible Solar Panels". If they are visible from public streets, you get to fight city hall and the preservation district, not a HOA These are cities with designated historic districts and they are getting stricter all the time. Only white or blue paint........

Brought to you by the same folks that run the HOAs, but with grown up powers.

it starts going bad about page 200:

http://co.mendocino.ca.us/bos/meetings/MG35269/AS35277/AS35293/AI35357/DO35432/1.PDF

[J.P.M.]

In California, the Solar Rights Act prevents any HOA or architectural Committee from banning solar. I know because mine tried 5 years ago and if I had reported them they would have received a $1,000 fine for not responding in 45 days. They were trying to stonewall me.

What you write of with respect to the Solar Rights Act is partially correct and partially incorrect.

If you are responding to Mike's post, and mostly agreeing with him, know that Arch. districts have different rules. In some/many designated Arch. or Historical districts, the Solar Rights Act is, by statute, subordinate to many preservation requirements and mandates.

In CA, and in general, your statement with respect to HOAs and Solar approval/disapproval is again partially correct and partially incorrect.

In CA, an HOA cannot ban members from adding alternate energy devices to a property.

But to be clear and compete, and with the intent of not having readers put more into your statement than is there, and for those interested, know there's more to the story.

The Solar Rights Act, or certain sections of it, does allow HOA's to place what are called "certain reasonable restrictions" on just what a member can do to their property.

To that end, the act also allows HOAs to generally impose restrictions on solar installations with the limits generally but not entirely limited to those that do not either add the lesser of $1,000 or up to 10% of the cost to the cost of the installation, or cause a decrease in system performance of >10%, although the law (et seq.) has so far, to the best of my or my HOA's legal counsel, not addressed how such a decrease is to be measured or what criteria are to be used to determine just how much of a decrease is anticipated. There have been and will probably be additional restrictions and clarifications to the law in the future. See litigation and case law for details if interested.

In summary, the Solar Rights Act has been good for PV, but it's not a blank check or a pass for homeowners to do anything they want. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the first front yard ground mount is attempted around here.

EDIT 04/08/2019: CORRECTION: THE APPROVAL TIME IS 45 DAYS. THE 60 DAY STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. " As for the 45 day fine, First off, that's now 60 days, and has always sort of followed other CA HOA requirements that HOAs must respond to any improvement request in writing within 45 days of a member's application or the request is approved by default. The fine part on the late approval is specific under sec.714(f) as the late approval violates sec. 714(e)

BTW, don't know if you're aware of this or not, but if you had been willing or able to prove willful negligence on the HOA's part in the form of intentional foot dragging under sec. 714(e), under sec. 714(f) you would have got the $1K fine and reasonable attorney's fees and court costs. Looks like you may have left $1K on the table.

Not that you care, but I'm the guy on my HOA Arch. Rev. Committee that reviews and recommends action by the ARC for all solar projects in my HOA. About 145 PV installs so far and counting. Seems like I'm intimate with all of them. Most were fun. Some were not. All were approved. Many within 48 hrs. Very few needed mods before approval and I'd suggest all such mods made for safer, better performing systems.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[bcroe]

Similar battles going on for erection of HAM antennas. Fed law specifies hams are an important emergency
service. HAMs usually win after they take it to court. Bruce Roe