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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14920

    #16
    Originally posted by Steeler.Fan
    My installer didn't layout the arrays properly on the SE monitoring program. I measure the azimuth with a compass and see attached satellite view from google maps.
    zip 96743
    PVWatts estimated 1,276 kwh production for July and I measured 1,171 but I think that the volcano contributed to some increased haze and clouds.
    AKM satellite view.jpg
    Thank you. The picture helps.

    Also, I now have your tabular data that I didn't have before that helps me to better understand what might be happening. My guess looking at the tabular numbers, that while a NW orientation is unfavorable for PV to the tune of maybe 20% less annual output than a more southerly orientation, the 13 panel array doesn't look differentially shaded as much as the 10 panel array seems to be, with the 10 panel array having more differential shading among those 10 panels. My guess is that the 13 panel array does not have much differential shading among those 13 panels, one to the next, but the 10 panel array does.

    I suppose high electricity rates in HI as well as the lower latitude can reduce the penalty in cost effectiveness brought on by a lousy orientation, but I still wonder if I'd do a NW orientation if I was in HI. But NOMB.

    As for PVWatts and output: Do not be under the impression that PVWatts can predict output over short periods. It's a model for residential PV design based on long term "representative) weather. It is not a predictor of performance, particularly short term performance. It's a model that uses data that is (anyway) mostly synthetically generated (not in most any way actual data for over 90% of the data used) to be used to provide long term performance estimates over many years. As the PVWatts help screens will state, any single month's output from the PVWatts model can vary from an array's actual production for the same calendar period by as much as +/- 30% or so. That you got close is not unusual, and the volcano eruption may well have contributed to the output, but to think PVWatts can, in effect, predict long term weather is no more accurate than thinking it's possible to predict next month's weather by any method.

    It's a lot easier for me to visualize how you would have a shading problem once I got a look at the tabular data, and looking at that data now, I tend to agree with Butch on the shading, at least for the 10 panel array. The 13 panel array may and probably is partially shaded, but to me that shading looks more orientation driven except for some possible shading from the trees on the east side.

    While not trying to be the statistics police, your sample size is too small to be using standard deviation and assume it's a valid parameter. Something called a "T" distribution might have some validity if you're interested, Another way to view variation in a qualitative sense might be to look at each array's average panel output divided by each corresponding array's range of panel outputs (highest output - lowest output) as a measure of panel/panel variation over an array. For the 13 panel array that # is ~ 0.10. For the 10 panel array, that number is ~ 0.20.

    I'd go out and look at the arrays during various times of the day and keep track of any shading. And, FWIW, keep track of hourly total output and compare it to the PVWatts hourly output on clear days and look for large differences in clear day hourly output which might be an indication of shading.

    Apologies for the late response. Something unexpected potted up.

    Good luck.

    Comment

    • Steeler.Fan
      Solar Fanatic
      • Feb 2013
      • 156

      #17
      J.P.M. Thanks for your very detailed explanations.
      I am not trying to determine if my differences in variations, in total output over 60+ days between brands of panels or between arrays or between both arrays and brands over time ( ANOVA?), are statistically significant.

      By "eye balling" the data, it appears that there is twice as much variation in the Panasonic panels as the Silevo panel's output. Your qualitative analysis is roughly the same. Is there an industry standard for measuring panel output variation with 'normal' ranges? Does my observed 60+ day output variation exceed those normal ranges of variation?

      BTW a more accurate way of determining the statistical significance of differences in my panels' output would probably involve a complex multi-factorial analysis of brand, array, irradiation, time of day by hour, time of year and temperature. We could not include shading since we don't have any objective and accurate measure of shading for each panel. It would be very tedious to obtain each panel's hourly output data and manually enter all of these data into a computer statistical analysis program like SPSS. Choice of the proper statistical model for analysis (MANOVA over time?) and interpretation of the results are far beyond my capability.

      Do I have some faulty Panasonic panels or does this amount of variation appear 'normal'?
      Last edited by Steeler.Fan; 08-26-2018, 01:27 PM.

      Comment

      • ImInPhxAZ
        Member
        • Sep 2017
        • 59

        #18
        Panels can have variation, but it's more likely the variation is due to SE hardware or installation method (wiring), than panels. Most panel manufacturers rate their panel down to 5watts. I.e. 325 watt panels, 320 watt panels, etc. I have a 3% spread on my 290 degree array over the last ~5 months. 274kwh on the lowest panel, 282kwh on the highest.

        ​​​​​

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