Am I missing something? And I "need" a NABCEP installer

[cnote]

Hey Folks,

First, I'm in Tennessee and keenly interested in a 8.7kw system for my dead south, no shade, single array on my garage roof. A professional install doesn't make economic sense in my area (TVA). However, I can buy a complete system delivered from Renvu for $8,800. If I do the majority of labor myself (I really enjoy this kind of thing), add in some misc expenses, and pay my electrician friend something, I can come away with an installed system for $7,000 after fed tax rebate.

Tennessee is a buy all/sell all state and will pay me $0.09/kwh for 20 years. I created a 20-year cash flow table based on PVWatts data and a 0.80% panel degradation factor (Any more and it should be warrantied). Add in a new inverter at year 10 and I'm looking at just shy of a 13% IRR. Not bad especially for clean energy (a big plus in my opinion). So first question is- am I missing something in my analysis? I do expect to keep the house for the rest of our lives (which is, God willing, more than 20 years for one or both of us!).

Second, TVA requires a NABCEP associate holder or better installer. I feel entirely competent to design and install this myself with the help of my master electrician friend. It would be cost prohibitive to have someone do a turn-key install. All TVA needs is a copy of someone's certificate at application. TVA never inspects. Only the state inspector does. So I need to find someone who is willing to give my plan the once over and provide TVA their bona-fides in return for a couple hundred bucks give or take. For $500 I can take an online 18 hour course and take a test myself, but I'd rather not if I can help it. Has anyone run into this before particularly in TVA land?

Thanks

[J.P.M.]

Their grid, their rules. Your integrity and your safety.

What are the last two worth to you ?

Since you seem more concerned about $$ than the other things, why not take the course as you suggest and rubber stamp the installation yourself. You might even come up with a better installation for what you learned. After that, you can do the same for others with the advantages of maybe making a few bucks and paying for the course, and screwing the TVA at the same time.

[DanS26]

Most professionals will not put their reputations, their license and their future revenue stream in jeopardy for a quick buck to help people scam the system.

Why do people think this way?

[cnote]

My bad. I thought this was a forum sympathetic to DIY, but you would have made a good nazi with that line of reasoning. Thank goodness you talked some sense into me though. So glad we have a program keeping us safe from the plague of DIY solar installs destroying lives and communities. Now I know to put all my trust and faith into someone with an 18 hour online "certificate" since TVA seems to deem that adequate, not to hook up to my local utilities grid mind you, but to sell electricity to them.


My local utility doesn't even require an inspection. Should I not do the TVA program, they just ask I let them know I'm grid tied anyway so they know what's going on when they get a backfeed signal. My County doesn't require a permit. My goodness how do they sleep at night? Who is going to protect me from myself!?!

Now I'm sure the NABCEP program is fine instruction. I just don't need it to design my array or keep my family safe (nor does most of the country apparently). The TVA program requires an installation to be "designed and inspected" by a NABCEP associate or higher. If someone wants to do this for a few hundred bucks, then I don't see what the problem is.

And lastly, it is my recognition that what the general public pays for electricity is not its true costs that I'm doing this. There are easier and likely more lucrative places to put $10,000. TVA and the industries that supply it energy are writ large with government subsidy and monopoly power and don't pass along the costs of their energy production. These costs are born on us in the form of acid rain, mountain top removal, mountains of coal ash spilling in rivers, nuclear waste, on and on. So if I lack integrity because I want to get my energy from the sun and I may (or may not) have to skirt a little red tape to do that, then so be it. I'll sleep fine at night.

[ButchDeal]

Most utilities do not require an inspection because it is required and performed by the building authority usually county or municipal. If you have a permit and etc. you can get all that taken care of. As for the Nabcep requirement that is usually for an incentive.
Get an electrician to do install th inverter and you should be good. Do not try to find one that will pass your work off as his.
you can get nabcep designs online for reasonable fees and these will help with the permit as well as the interconnect agreement.

[DanS26]

"Why do people think this way?"..........I think I just got my answer......thank you very much.

[cnote]

Get an electrician to do install th inverter and you should be good. Do not try to find one that will pass your work off as his.
you can get nabcep designs online for reasonable fees and these will help with the permit as well as the interconnect agreement.

Thanks. The plan all along is to have the electrician who wired my house do the wiring here and oversee my work. iI will be inspected by the State electrical inspector, so no problem there. I've seen the NABCEP plans online. I may go that route. The operative term is "inspected". Obviously, finding someone local makes this a non-issue. I'm really just wondering if any DIY'er in TVAland had the same issue and what they did.

[J.P.M.]

My bad. I thought this was a forum sympathetic to DIY, but you would have made a good nazi with that line of reasoning. Thank goodness you talked some sense into me though. So glad we have a program keeping us safe from the plague of DIY solar installs destroying lives and communities. Now I know to put all my trust and faith into someone with an 18 hour online "certificate" since TVA seems to deem that adequate, not to hook up to my local utilities grid mind you, but to sell electricity to them.


My local utility doesn't even require an inspection. Should I not do the TVA program, they just ask I let them know I'm grid tied anyway so they know what's going on when they get a backfeed signal. My County doesn't require a permit. My goodness how do they sleep at night? Who is going to protect me from myself!?!

Now I'm sure the NABCEP program is fine instruction. I just don't need it to design my array or keep my family safe (nor does most of the country apparently). The TVA program requires an installation to be "designed and inspected" by a NABCEP associate or higher. If someone wants to do this for a few hundred bucks, then I don't see what the problem is.

And lastly, it is my recognition that what the general public pays for electricity is not its true costs that I'm doing this. There are easier and likely more lucrative places to put $10,000. TVA and the industries that supply it energy are writ large with government subsidy and monopoly power and don't pass along the costs of their energy production. These costs are born on us in the form of acid rain, mountain top removal, mountains of coal ash spilling in rivers, nuclear waste, on and on. So if I lack integrity because I want to get my energy from the sun and I may (or may not) have to skirt a little red tape to do that, then so be it. I'll sleep fine at night.

Opinions and knowledge of why things are done as they are vary.

Sometimes finding out why regulations exist can be an informative and helpful process.

I'd respectfully suggest if you were to do so with an open mind with respect to the TVA requirements you might find it easier to get the chip off your shoulder. As a practical matter, and as onerous as it may seem, you also just might find way(s) to work with the system.

By way of analogy, PITA or not, most people put up with the DMV and seem to survive. Think about possible consequences when things go wrong for those who ignore regulation and use roads without license/insurance/proper vehicle maint. Who bears those costs and responsibility for harm when things go in the dumper ?

BTW, and particularly at $0.09/kWh, it's usually an economic no brainer that throwing PV at an electric bill is about the least cost effective way to reduce that bill. If part of that chip on your shoulder is due to being pissed at the TVA, using less electricity is a pretty effective form of lessening the burden of both the bill and the lumber. Also much higher IRR than 13% for much less environmental impact than anything else (that is, pretty close to zero) and - free bonus - no mean old gov. telling you what to do it - they won't even know you're screwing the TVA. It's also the single most cost effective way to lower the bill (cost == zero). Just sayin'.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

[cnote]

I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with you, but when someone questions my integrity, I guess I get "chippy".

There are a lot of regulations that serve the public good. There are some that serve to limit competition. So on and so on.

I agree decreasing energy consumption should nearly always be the first step. A few hundred bucks in air sealing would almost certainly have a higher net return than solar for example, but my house is built to a near passive house standard. I'm about at the limit of diminishing returns there.

In terms of economics, (other than a requirement that there is consumption at the place of installation), consumption has nothing to do with the equation. The way I look at it is I have $10k to invest regardless of what I consume in electricity. I can put that money in the stock market and earn a historical average rate of return of 11% with loads of volatility, or I can buy a utility company and install it on my roof for a 13% IRR with practically no volatility. I use IRR since we are talking discounted cash flows vs the compounded growth of stocks. This result surprised me, as I had been operating under the impression that solar is just not a good investment at the homeowner level. Hence, the "what am I missing" part of my post.

I guess if you account for the fact that I'm willing to spend a week on my roof (and the risk associated with that), design, research, internet spats, etc., then it wouldn't look so rosy. But I like this stuff and you've got to do something with your time.

[J.P.M.]

I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with you, but when someone questions my integrity, I guess I get "chippy".

There are a lot of regulations that serve the public good. There are some that serve to limit competition. So on and so on.

I agree decreasing energy consumption should nearly always be the first step. A few hundred bucks in air sealing would almost certainly have a higher net return than solar for example, but my house is built to a near passive house standard. I'm about at the limit of diminishing returns there.

In terms of economics, (other than a requirement that there is consumption at the place of installation), consumption has nothing to do with the equation. The way I look at it is I have $10k to invest regardless of what I consume in electricity. I can put that money in the stock market and earn a historical average rate of return of 11% with loads of volatility, or I can buy a utility company and install it on my roof for a 13% IRR with practically no volatility. I use IRR since we are talking discounted cash flows vs the compounded growth of stocks. This result surprised me, as I had been operating under the impression that solar is just not a good investment at the homeowner level. Hence, the "what am I missing" part of my post.

I guess if you account for the fact that I'm willing to spend a week on my roof (and the risk associated with that), design, research, internet spats, etc., then it wouldn't look so rosy. But I like this stuff and you've got to do something with your time.

Nothing about your integrity, NOMB or concern. But, if your consumption is so low, why do you need an 8.7 kw system on a dead south no shade roof ?

I could have and probably did say something very similar to you last sentence about 40+ years ago, and believed it so much I changed careers to engineering. Enjoy your adventure. I did and still do.

[cnote]

Nothing about your integrity, NOMB or concern. But, if your consumption is so low, why do you need an 8.7 kw system on a dead south no shade roof ?

Two teenagers who for some reason have to take two hot baths a day and can't seem to wear clothes twice without washing

[adoublee]

. For $500 I can take an online 18 hour course and take a test myself,

Thanks

I think you will find you are underestimating NABCEP's requirements.

[solarix]

I'll help you. Text me 928-300-5011

[1oldmf]

solarix. from your zip code, your in my area,, I'm doing an 8700 w grid tie, and need a certified elect , for information, and final connection, etc.
are you available?
thanks

[cnote]

My utility requires three brass labels (billing meter, solar meter, AC disconnect). Anyone know where I can get these without having them custom made? I've found tons of pvc labels but I don't see brass.