Picking the right System Help.

[arf88]

Hi Everyone,

I have read a lot of different beginner guides to solar and I'm just overwhelmed at the amount of information out there and the inconsistencies about product selection.

I have 3 different companies coming out this Sat to give me quotes and their sales pitch likely.

I want an efficient system that I don't have to expand with more panels later b/c Edison increased the rates slightly. I want zero maintenance as much as possible besides cleaning the panels which a lot of people I notice do not and that makes them less efficient. I'm not concerned about aesthetics at all since its on the back side of the house. I've got 2 local installers and I also have SolarCity and I'm considering having costco Sunrun come give a quote too even though their ConsumerReport ratings are horrible it can't hurt to have more to compare to.

After i receive the quotes. What should I specifically be looking for?
Inverter: What type of inverter(s) do you recommend, Micro or a Single unit. Pros and cons to both, with Micro you have multiple single point of failure and with a Single inverter you have one to worry about.
Panels: Name brand like Panasonic, Kyocera, GE or do I go with Suntech which is what one of them says they recommend.
Warranty: the longer the better of course i think this is self explanatory. Some guarantee output but up to a year with everything is new and most efficient so not putting much weight on this.

Any tips or suggestions is appreciated. I'm in So Cal if that helps.

[Crash]

I would get a few quotes from local installers. I used both Angieslist and homeadvisor. Then get your quotes and compare your options. For me I went with the local sunpower dealer since the warranty was most important to me for the amount of money spent. Others here will say I spent too much money but I didn't want to pay so much and then have warranty issues not covered 10-15 years down the road. I probably would have done just as well with the installers and saved a few bucks but the warranty meant a lot to me.

[J.P.M.]

Suit yourself, but SolarCity and Sunrun are simply bottom feeders. Go with them and you'll get what you deserve.

Beyond some basic level of quality, panels are mostly a commodity these days Stay with local vendors and spend as much or more time evaluating those local vendors and their integrity as their products.

Cancel your appt's. Then, go buy a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" for $20 @ bookstores/Amazon. and learn about how PV works on your own.
Then, investigate how you are charged for electricity and how those rates are probably/likely to change. A 100 % bill off set may not be the most cost effective.
Know that you will be on T.O.U. (time of use) billing.
Then, run PVWatts from NREL after reading the help/info screens. Use 10 % system losses rather than the 14 % default and get some preliminary sizing. You'll learn what that means as you learn PVWatts. Easy learn.
Only then, and after returning here to fill n knowledge gaps you generate by your self education, reschedule appt'.s with serious local vendors and ask questions you already know the answers to from your learning efforts. You'll be surprised to learn how little some vendors know.
Get your roof inspected/serviced. That'll be cheap insurance you will not regret.

Getting PV without getting screwed is mostly a matter of self education. Just don't rely on people with skin in the game for answers. That's one reason you're feeling overwhelmed. Knowledge is power. Get some of the first and use the power it gives you to avoid the screwing.

Other stuff: Hosing the array off about every 4 weeks or so if it doesn't rain is about as much maint. as you'll need. Commercial cleaning is a rip off.

No shade ? Use a string inverters. Fewer parts = Fewer things to go wrong than micro inverters on a roof that's a more harsh environment than a garage with a string inverter in it.

Warranties are nice, but of more use as marketing tools. Most failures tend to be infant mortality type, at least so far. Any decent panel and other equipment will have a sufficient warranty for as long as you're likely to own a system.

All decent systems of equal (electrical) size in the same location and orientation, and service, will produce about equal annual output for as long as you'll own a system. Don't swallow the hype about "most efficient". It's mostly B.S.

Decent systems from reputable vendors in So.CA can be had for ~ $3.25 - $3.50/STC Watt or so with some negotiating. Much more than that without adders for electrical upgrades, roof repairs, etc. and you're leaving $$ on the table. Sharpen your negotiating skills and product knowledge, and never share prices with competing vendors. You'll lock in a price doing that and the price will never go lower. "Price matching" is a trap vendors in every business use.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[arf88]

Thanks for the feedback, great sound advice. I just had a chance to review your post so I've already had a few companies come out and give me quotes. I've done quite a bit of reading so now its just a matter of getting community feedback on panels and and inverters to swift through the sales BS each of them threw at me.

I found it interesting each boast about how their product is the best and warranty and so forth.

Solar City was one of the more expensive quotes so they are not even a consideration.

Out of the 2 I'm debating on I requested a string inverter vs micro and they both recommended the same SolarEdge string inverter with optimizer at the panels.

Still waiting on the final proposal but the difference really comes down to the panels. One of them uses SunPower which from my research is about as efficient as they come for residential with about ~21% efficiency vs the rest. The SunPower panel is monocrystalline and I'm waiting for the final proposal which is also mono but I don't recall the brand but its not a popular name brand for sure.

The price for a 4.5KW system from SolarCity before rebate is about 19k, the local installer using sunpower panels is 17.2k and the final I'm waiting for.

I didn't share quotes and told each company I will weigh my decision on best quote since they all promise the best warranty and product. At the end of the day with these two quotes I'm looking at 10-12 year for a break even point which seems like a very long time. I specifically asked for a 140% system to account for not only the price increase of edision but the possibility of getting an electric car which is way out if even happens. I just want to ensure my bill remains the cost to stay connected to the grid (~$11) on peak months like the summer which is why I wanted a 140% system. I don't want to have them come back and pay more to add extra panels. Pay now and forget it.

What do you guys think?

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the feedback, great sound advice. I just had a chance to review your post so I've already had a few companies come out and give me quotes. I've done quite a bit of reading so now its just a matter of getting community feedback on panels and and inverters to swift through the sales BS each of them threw at me.

I found it interesting each boast about how their product is the best and warranty and so forth.

Solar City was one of the more expensive quotes so they are not even a consideration.

Out of the 2 I'm debating on I requested a string inverter vs micro and they both recommended the same SolarEdge string inverter with optimizer at the panels.

Still waiting on the final proposal but the difference really comes down to the panels. One of them uses SunPower which from my research is about as efficient as they come for residential with about ~21% efficiency vs the rest. The SunPower panel is monocrystalline and I'm waiting for the final proposal which is also mono but I don't recall the brand but its not a popular name brand for sure.

The price for a 4.5KW system from SolarCity before rebate is about 19k, the local installer using sunpower panels is 17.2k and the final I'm waiting for.

I didn't share quotes and told each company I will weigh my decision on best quote since they all promise the best warranty and product. At the end of the day with these two quotes I'm looking at 10-12 year for a break even point which seems like a very long time. I specifically asked for a 140% system to account for not only the price increase of edision but the possibility of getting an electric car which is way out if even happens. I just want to ensure my bill remains the cost to stay connected to the grid (~$11) on peak months like the summer which is why I wanted a 140% system. I don't want to have them come back and pay more to add extra panels. Pay now and forget it.

What do you guys think?

Since you ask:

Avoid SolarCity because they are not reputable or ethical. The higher price is an insult.

Sunpower is good quality. So are others. As for Sunpower's "most efficient" claim - it's B.S. It's an AREA efficiency. It means that a Sunpower array of say, 5 kW will physically be about 20 % smaller than most other arrays. BUT, all 5 kW arrays in the same location, orientation and duty will produce about equal annual output - regardless of footprint - Sunpower's and everyone elses.
What that "mosr efficient" means is that Sunpower produces about 15-20 % more output per m^2, but the cost per STC Watt (which is how system prices are compared) will be more, making Sun power cost Inefficient. If roof real estate prices are important or high, then a physically smaller Sunpower array will be worth the extra $ you'll pay. Otherwise, forget the "most efficient" hype and compare system prices per installed STC Watt (before tax credits/rebates), and remember that low initial cost is not necessarily the most cost effective option.

That 10 year breakeven is at least partially caused by oversizing your system. Oversizing may feel good and is a choice, but doing so will wind up costing you more in the long run in installed costs and electricity costs that if you had done nothing. If one goal of PV is to reduce electricity costs, that's a counterproductive way to do it.

[arf88]

JPM: Thank you so much for your feedback really important to hear this from experienced user like yourself so I feel like I'm heading in the right direction. The efficiency argument makes perfect sense. I don't have a real estate issue at all and I'm oversizing the system to account for future price hikes and the possibility of buying an EV for myself and my wife in the future. Your point about look at the $/Watt really resonated with me. I have negotiated a price down to just under $3/W for this system which I believe is really fair considering the alternatives like SolarCity and SunRun and the other local competitors. This is for E20 panels, I'm waiting on the details of the SolarEdge model and optimizers.

I did read up on SMA inverter but I understand the efficiency of the SMA is marginally lower than SolarEdge so I'm sticking with SolarEdge reluctantly because of where it is manufactured. SMA i believe is MFG and designed in Germany but Solar edge is designed in Israel and MFG in china. Given the market share of SolarEdge I'm not too concerned over quality control issues so I'm going to with with the SolarEdge for now unless I hear otherwise.

I'm waiting on the details of the warranty for the inverter and panels to see if it is on par with the rest of the proposals. The Inverter if I read correctly is 12 years and the MTBF on it is around that time frame or sooner so my concern is getting an extended warranty to cover the cost of the inverter in the event it goes out on year 12 or 13.

[J.P.M.]

JPM: Thank you so much for your feedback really important to hear this from experienced user like yourself so I feel like I'm heading in the right direction. The efficiency argument makes perfect sense. I don't have a real estate issue at all and I'm oversizing the system to account for future price hikes and the possibility of buying an EV for myself and my wife in the future. Your point about look at the $/Watt really resonated with me. I have negotiated a price down to just under $3/W for this system which I believe is really fair considering the alternatives like SolarCity and SunRun and the other local competitors. This is for E20 panels, I'm waiting on the details of the SolarEdge model and optimizers.

I did read up on SMA inverter but I understand the efficiency of the SMA is marginally lower than SolarEdge so I'm sticking with SolarEdge reluctantly because of where it is manufactured. SMA i believe is MFG and designed in Germany but Solar edge is designed in Israel and MFG in china. Given the market share of SolarEdge I'm not too concerned over quality control issues so I'm going to with with the SolarEdge for now unless I hear otherwise.

I'm waiting on the details of the warranty for the inverter and panels to see if it is on par with the rest of the proposals. The Inverter if I read correctly is 12 years and the MTBF on it is around that time frame or sooner so my concern is getting an extended warranty to cover the cost of the inverter in the event it goes out on year 12 or 13.

NOMB with respect to oversizing. Just know as much as you can about current future POCO rates and trends, and know that while the smart money and savvy PV users may over size, they know a bit more about the financial drawbacks and consequences of doing so. Just walk in with your eyes open is all. Really open.

I'd also respectfully reiterate that it's not about low buck, it's about most long term bang for the buck. Pay as much attention to vendor quality and integrity as equipment. Terrible to pay too much. Worse to pay too little.

[arf88]

Thanks for the feedback again. I'm in communication now regarding extended warranty for the SolarEdge inverter. The company is offering a $500 20 year warranty but the cost of the warranty through solar edge pricing appears to be cheaper so I was advised to purchase the extended warranty myself. This means that I would be on the hook for replacement of the inverter which I don't think will be a problem as I'm pretty hands on and an engineer who tinkers. If it wasn't for the roof height I would install the whole system myself.

I don't know the MTBF of these inverters, I've read anywhere from 10-12 years they need to be replaced. The warranty verbiage itself doesn't give me a lot of confidence. It would appear it might be worth while to skip the extended warranty and just pay for a replacement cost and possibly a more efficient model in the future when the time comes. What is your opinion on the extended warranty of the inverter?

https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/solaredge-warranty-june-2016.pdf

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the feedback again. I'm in communication now regarding extended warranty for the SolarEdge inverter. The company is offering a $500 20 year warranty but the cost of the warranty through solar edge pricing appears to be cheaper so I was advised to purchase the extended warranty myself. This means that I would be on the hook for replacement of the inverter which I don't think will be a problem as I'm pretty hands on and an engineer who tinkers. If it wasn't for the roof height I would install the whole system myself.

I don't know the MTBF of these inverters, I've read anywhere from 10-12 years they need to be replaced. The warranty verbiage itself doesn't give me a lot of confidence. It would appear it might be worth while to skip the extended warranty and just pay for a replacement cost and possibly a more efficient model in the future when the time comes. What is your opinion on the extended warranty of the inverter?

https://www.solaredge.com/sites/defa...-june-2016.pdf

Lots of folks think extended warranties are a rip off. If the weren't, companies wouldn't be pushing the hard sell for them as much as they do. One minute they say the product is great. The next, you're told you better spend extra $$ because it will fail. It's B.S. Profit based on probability is built into the extended warranty pricing, and it's pure profit the way the game is run. Extended warranties are a screw job sold to fools easily separated from their money.

[arf88]

I decided not to go with the Sunpower dealer, reason being is the panels were the E20 which is no longer produced and I don't want legacy panels in the event something goes wrong I'm at the mercy of left over inventory and likely they will be out in a few years. Also the rep was less than forthcoming after I contacted Edison to get verification on net metering 2.0 costs.

That said I'm looking at pulling the trigger on a similar size system after talking to close to a dozen more contractors today and I'm pretty happy with the quote for Panasonic 330 panels and the new solaredge HD. The warranty is top notch and after doing some research on the panasonic HIT 330 panels on here and on the web the efficiency is almost as good as the new sunpower panels. Only downside is they are 96 cells so they take up slightly more real estate.

What is your opinion on the panasonic 330s? I also received a quote for Hyundai 350 and LG 330 and LG 360 and LG 300. The LG reviews really turned me off so I'm not really interested in the LG at all.

Thanks

[J.P.M.]

I decided not to go with the Sunpower dealer, reason being is the panels were the E20 which is no longer produced and I don't want legacy panels in the event something goes wrong I'm at the mercy of left over inventory and likely they will be out in a few years. Also the rep was less than forthcoming after I contacted Edison to get verification on net metering 2.0 costs.

That said I'm looking at pulling the trigger on a similar size system after talking to close to a dozen more contractors today and I'm pretty happy with the quote for Panasonic 330 panels and the new solaredge HD. The warranty is top notch and after doing some research on the panasonic HIT 330 panels on here and on the web the efficiency is almost as good as the new sunpower panels. Only downside is they are 96 cells so they take up slightly more real estate.

What is your opinion on the panasonic 330s? I also received a quote for Hyundai 350 and LG 330 and LG 360 and LG 300. The LG reviews really turned me off so I'm not really interested in the LG at all.

Thanks

Since you ask:

In spite of what you may read, or what you seem to think, panels are more or less a commodity these days beyond some basic level of quality. The quality of the installation is as, or more, important than the material manufacturer, provided it's material of known and recognized quality.

BTW, whatever you buy, it'll more than likely be a legacy panel in a few years. Nothing you can do about it. Honest.

FWIW, and IMO only, worry less to not much at all about warranty and whose panel will be around in the future, and more about quality installation and vendor integrity.

[arf88]

Great advice, these guys are top rated on just about every solar site that reviews companies. I take yelp review with a grain of salt. I trust google reviews far more than yelp but on both they are stellar. I'm just waiting for a final contract to pull the trigger and give them a deposit. The price I got was really good per watt for the quality of the panels and inverter with the warranty they provided. Thanks for your help on this journey.

[J.P.M.]

Great advice, these guys are top rated on just about every solar site that reviews companies. I take yelp review with a grain of salt. I trust google reviews far more than yelp but on both they are stellar. I'm just waiting for a final contract to pull the trigger and give them a deposit. The price I got was really good per watt for the quality of the panels and inverter with the warranty they provided. Thanks for your help on this journey.

Trust but verify. Check on delivery to see that the material is per the contract and drawings. Sit on the roof in an out of the way with your mouth shut and watch the work being done. If you see something amiss like a missed rafter, sloppy wiring, etc, ask the lead person only. You're paying the bills but don't waste the workers' time or distract them.

If you're concerned about warranties, getting involved in these ways is about the best warranty available. Just be professional about it and not a butt head.

Don't forget an important aspect: Get your roof inspected/serviced as needed. A PV system will last a long time. Give the roof under it the best/highest probability of lasting as long. Chasing leaks or attempting repairs to a roof under an array is an expensive undertaking that will probably affect array performance when dis/reassembly is attempted by roofers or others not familiar with PV. Consider any remedial roof work to be cheap insurance. You'll sleep better when it rains.

Good luck.

[arf88]

Thanks I will take that into consideration. I requested the install on a friday or weekend so I can be there in the event they have questions. I also contacted the panel mfg to ask if there are any markings so i can verify they are authentic panels although I'm not worried they will be knock off like you said trust by verify. I've looked into cleaning panels and maintenance. I like the solar edge HD b/c of the size but I still think it will go outside b/c of the heat it generates i don't want it cooking my cool insulated garage. I wish the monitoring was live but its not the GSM/CDMA updates every 4 hours and uploads every 15 mins. The Zigbee is unreliable over wifi, I can plug into it direct over LAN if I want to run the conduit from one side of the garage to the other but the GSM for 12 years and they will upgrade one time for free is worth it and the renewal is only $100 through the mfg.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks I will take that into consideration. I requested the install on a friday or weekend so I can be there in the event they have questions. I also contacted the panel mfg to ask if there are any markings so i can verify they are authentic panels although I'm not worried they will be knock off like you said trust by verify. I've looked into cleaning panels and maintenance. I like the solar edge HD b/c of the size but I still think it will go outside b/c of the heat it generates i don't want it cooking my cool insulated garage. I wish the monitoring was live but its not the GSM/CDMA updates every 4 hours and uploads every 15 mins. The Zigbee is unreliable over wifi, I can plug into it direct over LAN if I want to run the conduit from one side of the garage to the other but the GSM for 12 years and they will upgrade one time for free is worth it and the renewal is only $100 through the mfg.

You're welcome. Try to get panels with continuous/sequential serial numbers. Not critical, but a nice touch.

The most the SolarEdge unit will add heat wise is ~ = [array output * (1-inverter eff.)], probably a bit less.

By way of comparison(s), If you have a tank H2O heater in the garage, its heat loss is already adding probably 2X or more what the inverter will add. A car that's been operating for an hr. or so on a warm/ sunny day will add much more. The heat an inverter will add is peanuts by comparison.

IMO, the electronics will be a lot better off and safer in the garage than elsewhere.

Installers would rather put them outside as it's usually/often easier to do it that way.