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**organic farmer** · 07-23-2017, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Mike7381

... The facts:
I am located in LA Puente, CA, my power consumption is $2500 per year. My house is around 1160 sq ft with 3 bedrooms, high ceiling, most of the house without any insulation, therefore it is super hot during summers and cold during winters. Around 50% of the power used are because of my tenant that doesn't sleep at night, while during the day, the central AC (2.5 Tons) which is not enough for the house will run from around 10am to 8:30 pm

I suspect that if you focused on insulation instead, the money you spend will have a far greater return.

**cebury** · 07-23-2017, 10:13 PM

So you have not upgraded an older central AC yet and are cknsidering installing split, since his room needs it at different times? How old is your current AC?
If old, you should do this and the immediately and the insulation and it will likely reduce your bill the very next month. Blown insulation is an easy DIY also if yoh want to save money and can do the labor in an accessible attic. Then you can see where or if you want to go solar

**Mike7381** · 07-23-2017, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by organic farmer

I suspect that if you focused on insulation instead, the money you spend will have a far greater return.

We love our high ceiling and I think insulation will lower the ceiling unless it is a cool roof. My attic is super small that it is hard to do any work on it. I guess going solar is the way to go since I planning on electric cars. Which system will you choose?

**J.P.M.** · 07-23-2017, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by organic farmer

I suspect that if you focused on insulation instead, the money you spend will have a far greater return.

You do not have an energy situation, you have a consumption problem. Start by increasing the thermostat setting in summer and lowering it in the winter, or have your tenant kick in about half the electric bill. Friends don't let friends pay their energy use. That also usually spurs conservation efforts. You have a situation similar to someone who owns a boat with a leaky hull and a bilge pump that runs all the time producing large electric bills. Rather than a system that produces more electricity, it might be more effective to caulk the hull and seal the leaks so the pump would run less and use less electricity, thus lowering the bill. Tighten the place up, get an energy audit and insulate, or update the insulation. The tenant is your problem.

For now, forget solar until you do 3 things:

1.) Download and read a free copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", or buy an updated copy at bookstores or Amazon, etc. Your need an education.

2.) Download and run PVWatts. It's a solar modeling program for homeowners. Easy to use. read the help/info screens. You'll learn a lot..

3.) Understand how much electricity you burn through in kWh/yr., not necessarily $$, figure out how you are charged by your power co. (the "POCO"), relate that to your current bill and how much electricity you will use you will use after conservation measures, and how billing is changing for the future. See below for why. You sound a bit unsure of how billing works. Knowledge up.

Then, after all that take the estimated sizing you got from using your newly acquired knowledge to contact vendors and tell them what size of a system you want - again, sized to meet the estimated reduced load after conservation, including ~ 4,000 extra kWh/yr. for an EV, and tell them that's the size you want and tell them what you want to pay - and shoot a little low on price.

FWIW, $2,500/yr. in SCE territory sounds like about 10,000 kWh/yr. +/- some, so a 6 kW system as suggested might be a reasonable size, particularly with an EV down the road. Just know that POCO net metering terms are changing and will probably be less off a sweet deal in the future, maybe sooner than later. Also, if you have a south or southwest roof available, that will be a better orientation than southeast, mostly because Time Of Use tariff times - which you will be on, if not already on, will have a slight to moderate favorable bias to southwest orientations for greater bill offsets for a fixed system size. Whatever the orientation, know that net metering will not be the sweetheart deal in the future as it has been in the past. That will lower the cost effectiveness of a PV system, push out payback times, and hence its worth and so lower its price. Vendors will probably not be too forthcoming with that information.

**Mike7381** · 07-23-2017, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by cebury

So you have not upgraded an older central AC yet and are cknsidering installing split, since his room needs it at different times? How old is your current AC?
If old, you should do this and the immediately and the insulation and it will likely reduce your bill the very next month. Blown insulation is an easy DIY also if yoh want to save money and can do the labor in an accessible attic. Then you can see where or if you want to go solar

I don't know how old is my central AC, I guess it is at least 10 yrs old since I lived here for 4 years already and I doubt the previous owner install a new A/C. In addition, the A/C is not strong enough for the whole house anyway. It is only 2.5 tons while most of my neighbor have a 3.5 tons or bigger for the same size house. With 10 hrs of A/C, temperature still goes up to 88 F sometimes. So down the line, I will have to replace it or get another A/C system within a few yrs. So that's why I am thinking about getting the 5.94 KW system and get 3 mini split A/C, one for each rooms since we don't really use the living room that much. Also the mini split A/C should be enough to cool each room making it more comfortable than a central A/C that can't keep the temperature below 80F and consume more electricity.

**Mike7381** · 07-23-2017, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by J.P.M.

You do not have an energy situation, you have a consumption problem. Start by increasing the thermostat setting in summer and lowering it in the winter, or have your tenant kick in about half the electric bill. Friends don't let friends pay their energy use. That also usually spurs conservation efforts. You have a situation similar to someone who owns a boat with a leaky hull and a bilge pump that runs all the time producing large electric bills. Rather than a system that produces more electricity, it might be more effective to caulk the hull and seal the leaks so the pump would run less and use less electricity, thus lowering the bill. Tighten the place up, get an energy audit and insulate, or update the insulation. The tenant is your problem.

For now, forget solar until you do 3 things:

1.) Download and read a free copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", or buy an updated copy at bookstores or Amazon, etc. Your need an education.

2.) Download and run PVWatts. It's a solar modeling program for homeowners. Easy to use. read the help/info screens. You'll learn a lot..

3.) Understand how much electricity you burn through in kWh/yr., not necessarily $$, figure out how you are charged by your power co. (the "POCO"), relate that to your current bill and how much electricity you will use you will use after conservation measures, and how billing is changing for the future. See below for why. You sound a bit unsure of how billing works. Knowledge up.

Then, after all that take the estimated sizing you got from using your newly acquired knowledge to contact vendors and tell them what size of a system you want - again, sized to meet the estimated reduced load after conservation, including ~ 4,000 extra kWh/yr. for an EV, and tell them that's the size you want and tell them what you want to pay - and shoot a little low on price.

FWIW, $2,500/yr. in SCE territory sounds like about 10,000 kWh/yr. +/- some, so a 6 kW system as suggested might be a reasonable size, particularly with an EV down the road. Just know that POCO net metering terms are changing and will probably be less off a sweet deal in the future, maybe sooner than later. Also, if you have a south or southwest roof available, that will be a better orientation than southeast, mostly because Time Of Use tariff times - which you will be on, if not already on, will have a slight to moderate favorable bias to southwest orientations for greater bill offsets for a fixed system size. Whatever the orientation, know that net metering will not be the sweetheart deal in the future as it has been in the past. That will lower the cost effectiveness of a PV system, push out payback times, and hence its worth and so lower its price. Vendors will probably not be too forthcoming with that information.

Thanks for your advice, I did understand how they bill me, SCE is billing for $.16 per KW for tier 1 and $.25 per KW for Tier 2 and yes my annual consumption is just a bit over 10,000 KW. I also understand insulation and other energy efficient stuffs can save me more money. I did have someone came and check to see how can I save electricity a year after I moved it. Since there are only small area that have attic, all the bedrooms and living do not have a attic, they are all open beam and we do like the style of the house right now. It will also costs more than 20K to insulate it. That's the reason why I want to start with A/C and a solar system first. My hourly energy consumption when the central A/C is on now is anywhere from 3.5KW - 3.9KW and average 47KW per day. I do believe if only one split A/C system is on during the day, it will save at least 10KW per day. Also we also do not know if our president will take off that 30% credit anytime soon even though it is extend through 2019 for now. This is why I want to go solar now and be more energy efficient with new split A/C systems. I will also be researching on cool roof, skylights, and other stuffs that can lower my electricity bills.

**Mike7381** · 07-23-2017, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by J.P.M.

You do not have an energy situation, you have a consumption problem. Start by increasing the thermostat setting in summer and lowering it in the winter, or have your tenant kick in about half the electric bill. Friends don't let friends pay their energy use. That also usually spurs conservation efforts. You have a situation similar to someone who owns a boat with a leaky hull and a bilge pump that runs all the time producing large electric bills. Rather than a system that produces more electricity, it might be more effective to caulk the hull and seal the leaks so the pump would run less and use less electricity, thus lowering the bill. Tighten the place up, get an energy audit and insulate, or update the insulation. The tenant is your problem.

For now, forget solar until you do 3 things:

1.) Download and read a free copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", or buy an updated copy at bookstores or Amazon, etc. Your need an education.

2.) Download and run PVWatts. It's a solar modeling program for homeowners. Easy to use. read the help/info screens. You'll learn a lot..

3.) Understand how much electricity you burn through in kWh/yr., not necessarily $$, figure out how you are charged by your power co. (the "POCO"), relate that to your current bill and how much electricity you will use you will use after conservation measures, and how billing is changing for the future. See below for why. You sound a bit unsure of how billing works. Knowledge up.

Then, after all that take the estimated sizing you got from using your newly acquired knowledge to contact vendors and tell them what size of a system you want - again, sized to meet the estimated reduced load after conservation, including ~ 4,000 extra kWh/yr. for an EV, and tell them that's the size you want and tell them what you want to pay - and shoot a little low on price.

FWIW, $2,500/yr. in SCE territory sounds like about 10,000 kWh/yr. +/- some, so a 6 kW system as suggested might be a reasonable size, particularly with an EV down the road. Just know that POCO net metering terms are changing and will probably be less off a sweet deal in the future, maybe sooner than later. Also, if you have a south or southwest roof available, that will be a better orientation than southeast, mostly because Time Of Use tariff times - which you will be on, if not already on, will have a slight to moderate favorable bias to southwest orientations for greater bill offsets for a fixed system size. Whatever the orientation, know that net metering will not be the sweetheart deal in the future as it has been in the past. That will lower the cost effectiveness of a PV system, push out payback times, and hence its worth and so lower its price. Vendors will probably not be too forthcoming with that information.

I was trying to learn something on PVwatts, and it turned out that I already try it last night. Also I do not have a southwest roof, It is either southeast or northwest and I know northwest is not as good as southeast.

**J.P.M.** · 07-23-2017, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Mike7381

Thanks for your advice, I did understand how they bill me, SCE is billing for $.16 per KW for tier 1 and $.25 per KW for Tier 2 and yes my annual consumption is just a bit over 10,000 KW. I also understand insulation and other energy efficient stuffs can save me more money. I did have someone came and check to see how can I save electricity a year after I moved it. Since there are only small area that have attic, all the bedrooms and living do not have a attic, they are all open beam and we do like the style of the house right now. It will also costs more than 20K to insulate it. That's the reason why I want to start with A/C and a solar system first. My hourly energy consumption when the central A/C is on now is anywhere from 3.5KW - 3.9KW and average 47KW per day. I do believe if only one split A/C system is on during the day, it will save at least 10KW per day. Also we also do not know if our president will take off that 30% credit anytime soon even though it is extend through 2019 for now. This is why I want to go solar now and be more energy efficient with new split A/C systems. I will also be researching on cool roof, skylights, and other stuffs that can lower my electricity bills.

You are most welcome.

Your tiered rate billing is going away. You will be on time of use (T.O.U.) billing soon. Current T.O.U. peak billing hours are late morning to late afternoon. That's good for customers on NEM. Future T.O.U. peak billing hours will be late afternoon to early evening. That's bad for customers on NEM. Get educated and discover how the cost effectiveness of a PV system will decrease under the new T.O.U. tariffs and the new schedules. PV systems becoming less cost effective will lower their value and their price. This will become more known as time goes on, but don't expect vendors to be forthcoming about it.

**Mike7381** · 07-24-2017, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by J.P.M.

You are most welcome.

Your tiered rate billing is going away. You will be on time of use (T.O.U.) billing soon. Current T.O.U. peak billing hours are late morning to late afternoon. That's good for customers on NEM. Future T.O.U. peak billing hours will be late afternoon to early evening. That's bad for customers on NEM. Get educated and discover how the cost effectiveness of a PV system will decrease under the new T.O.U. tariffs and the new schedules. PV systems becoming less cost effective will lower their value and their price. This will become more known as time goes on, but don't expect vendors to be forthcoming about it.

I already read about it, but we still dont know when they going to make it happen, i think they cant just change it like it, i think some regulation agency have to agree to it first. Also base on what you said, there is no point in going solar in the future then, since it will require at least 1.2 kw for the energy that solar generation for 1 kw of comsumption during peak hrs. I know using battery storage will pretend that from happening but it is extra costs.

**cebury** · 07-24-2017, 12:05 AM

I would have them requote option #1 with the same Canadian solar panels, but using Solaredge. Thatd be a good third option, but alas they are all from one vendor. It is important to get mutliple vendors in your quotes. Thats my preference when module level component architecture is chosen.

And yeah your payback is going to get longer since youre going Nem2 and in a couple few years all 3 major POCOs will be using TOU billing with unfavorable peak time windows and rates (and possibly new charges) for all solar customers.

I'd choose the smaller size and do the AC upgrades, but youll need to fight the feeling of wanting to zero out your bill (mostly impossible now anyway) and avoid the post-install remorse to get an even larger system.

**Mike7381** · 07-24-2017, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by cebury

I would have them requote option #1 with the same Canadian solar panels, but using Solaredge. Thatd be a good third option, but alas they are all from one vendor. It is important to get mutliple vendors in your quotes. Thats my preference when module level component architecture is chosen.

And yeah your payback is going to get longer since youre going Nem2 and in a couple few years all 3 major POCOs will be using TOU billing with unfavorable peak time windows and rates (and possibly new charges) for all solar customers.

I'd choose the smaller size and do the AC upgrades, but youll need to fight the feeling of wanting to zero out your bill (mostly impossible now anyway) and avoid the post-install remorse to get an even larger system.

I already know there are no zero electric bill anymore since there is a daily usage charge and min daily charge. The bill will be at least $10 each months unless there are lots of excess electricity that goes back to the grid. Sce only pay 2.5 cents per kw which is super low. When the new tou go effective, then it defeat most of the benefit going solar. Tou-a & tou-b already have peak hrs at 2-8pm, and tou-dt have peak hrs at 12-6pm, i guess the worst they can do is change all of them to 4-10pm and increase the rate a little bit.

**cebury** · 07-24-2017, 01:18 AM

Thats not the worst. There are ways to manipulate both the window and tou periods to minimize solar payback, thus ease pressure on their bottomline. PGE is also shrinking the E6 summer down to 4 months, so peak credits go away for 8 months. With a different governor, lobbyists and campaign contributions can convince the cpuc to allow the pocos to implement demand charges or go back go meter charges instead of min.bills (and do this only for rooftop solar). They could leave nem in place, just add charges, so they technically didnt break the promise of 20 yr retail nem. But its all speculation.

**Mike7381** · 07-24-2017, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by cebury

Thats not the worst. There are ways to manipulate both the window and tou periods to minimize solar payback, thus ease pressure on their bottomline. PGE is also shrinking the E6 summer down to 4 months, so peak credits go away for 8 months. With a different governor, lobbyists and campaign contributions can convince the cpuc to allow the pocos to implement demand charges or go back go meter charges instead of min.bills (and do this only for rooftop solar). They could leave nem in place, just add charges, so they technically didnt break the promise of 20 yr retail nem. But its all speculation.

What I read is during 2019, all residential customers are transition into TOU rate with an option to stay on Tier rate, and I do believe that option come with a price. They might make TOU rates more attractive to Tier rate by raising the Tier rate higher and the off peak or super off-peak rate even lower than the Tier 1 rate. So I believe most people can't avoid TOU rates after 2019. In addition, I also read about an super charge fee will be charge for high usage customer which I am one of them and will probably be one of them. I believe one of the benefit of going solar is the possibility of avoiding that super charge fee. I do not understand where you said go back to meter charges? What is that meter charges and demand charges are you referring to? I know they can push the peak hours to later afternoon or evening and/or shorten the peak hour charges making solar less attractive. However I do believe there are still more benefit by going solar. All of these affect more if the solar system is oversized since less credit for the power generated, however what if the power your solar system generated during the day is only enough to use for the day? Then you don't have to worry about giving you less credit because there are no excess electricity generated. You will end up paying only for the electricity that you use at night which is not a lot compare to what I am paying now and the electricity rates keep going up. If there are no solar, then there are no choice but to pay whatever they want you to pay. In addition, energy company might be able to do all kind of tricks to lessen the benefit of solar, but I believe they might give a grace period for people who already have solar since it is super unfair to the people that already have it. A good example is Net metering 2.0. People who already have solar before July 1st are grandfathered into the Net metering 1.0. The people that install solar after July 1st take the hit. I am not saying it will for sure to be like that, but this is a possibility. If I go solar later than they implemented this new policy during 2019, then there are no point in going solar. Also if they move the peak hours later in the evening, then I will probably install a smart thermostat, so I can turn the A/C on 1 hours before the peak hrs to make the house cooler before I get home. Or maybe the battery storage is cheaper as technology advances. All I know is electricity is getting more expensive, and even if in the future, Solar can only eliminate your super off-peak rates, I believe it is still worth it because the super off-pk rate will probably be a lot more than whatever it is now.

**Mike7381** · 07-24-2017, 02:46 AM

Anymore recommendation? I guess I should just go with the 5.94 KW system right?

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