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First electric bill since the panels went in. $12.83!

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  • First electric bill since the panels went in. $12.83!

    Here in Connecticut with the highest electricity rates in the U.S besides Hawaii this was a welcome relief...

    The $19.25 customer service charge is unavoidable. Production has also been low as the weather was terrible during that time frame. According to my net meter I am currently -250 kwh's currently and the sun has been shining here in New England the last few days. 018.JPG .


  • #2
    Congratulations! Solar works..... Now help spread the "light"
    BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

    Comment


    • #3
      Questions:
      1.) What did the system cost you net, after tax credits/rebates, etc ?

      2.) Any SRECs involved ? if so, how much ?

      3.) What would your bill have been without a PV system ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
        Questions:
        1.) What did the system cost you net, after tax credits/rebates, etc ?

        2.) Any SRECs involved ? if so, how much ?

        3.) What would your bill have been without a PV system ?
        5.4 kwh system. After rebates and incentives it was $9500 or around $1.75 a watt. We bought them in cash and our expected payback is 6 years. Connecticut has a very generous incentive. I believe its the best in the nation. I took the upfront incentive of around $3100 and doing so made me not eligible for SRECS.

        Bill would have been easily $150+ a month this time of the year. We pay around .20-.25 a kwh here total cost delivered.

        We have a heat wave here the next few days. Its great watching the net meter sending power to the grid even as our central air is running.
        Last edited by BFW577; 06-11-2017, 06:45 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by BFW577 View Post

          5.4 kwh system. After rebates and incentives it was $9500 or around $1.75 a watt. We bought them in cash and our expected payback is 6 years. Connecticut has a very generous incentive. I believe its the best in the nation. I took the upfront incentive of around $3100 and doing so made me not eligible for SRECS.

          Bill would have been easily $150+ a month this time of the year. We pay around .20-.25 a kwh here total cost delivered.

          We have a heat wave here the next few days. Its great watching the net meter sending power to the grid even as our central air is running.
          Thank you.

          I look forward to the day when solar and R.E. can stand on their own and be that cost effective without gov. incentives. Time for PV to stop living in the fed. and state governments' basements and finally grow up.

          On CT having the highest rates outside of HI: If your per kWh cost is actually ~ $0.20 - $0.25/kWh, you're getting away relatively cheap compared to a lot of places on CA. A typical tiered tariff average rate SDG & E residential customers using ~ 12,000 kWh/yr. is, ~ $0.31/kWh. Residential average per kWh rate on T.O.U. tariffs are similar, maybe a bit less, depending on usage pattern.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

            Thank you.

            I look forward to the day when solar and R.E. can stand on their own and be that cost effective without gov. incentives. Time for PV to stop living in the fed. and state governments' basements and finally grow up.

            On CT having the highest rates outside of HI: If your per kWh cost is actually ~ $0.20 - $0.25/kWh, you're getting away relatively cheap compared to a lot of places on CA. A typical tiered tariff average rate SDG & E residential customers using ~ 12,000 kWh/yr. is, ~ $0.31/kWh. Residential average per kWh rate on T.O.U. tariffs are similar, maybe a bit less, depending on usage pattern.
            If you check on the DOE energy rates for the US they seem to gloss over the higher tiered rates you can find in CA.

            I guess they calculate the cost / kWh on some average billing as well as being based also on the average monthly kWh usage. Here in Fl most of the rates are lower for the first 1000kWh but go up to a slightly higher rate above that 1000.

            Although the base kWh rate is very high for all of New England with CT being at the top. At least they have pretty good incentives for the homeowner to install solar.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

              If you check on the DOE energy rates for the US they seem to gloss over the higher tiered rates you can find in CA.

              I guess they calculate the cost / kWh on some average billing as well as being based also on the average monthly kWh usage. Here in Fl most of the rates are lower for the first 1000kWh but go up to a slightly higher rate above that 1000.

              Although the base kWh rate is very high for all of New England with CT being at the top. At least they have pretty good incentives for the homeowner to install solar.
              After getting into utility rates - mostly for my utility (SDG & E) and those of the other 2 big I.O.U's in CA, but to some small extent the rest of the U.S. as well, one thing I think I see happening that probably applies in most every situation but may be more troublesome when talking about residential utility bills, are the temptations to oversimplify things and then use extreme of rates (as in, for example:" Ya' know, I pay $0.50/kWh in CA so solar's a no brainer for me..."), or simply repeating what someone else incorrectly and ignorantly babbles about rates.

              The devil's in the details - and in the ignorance resulting from not making the effort and taking the time to be informed. In the $0.50/kWh case, that is indeed close ($0.50629/kWh) to the rate actual peak T.O.U. rate in summer for SDG & E T.O.U. tariff with a PV system. The rest of the story to go with that is that an annual T.O.U. rate bill for some "representative" (??) usage pattern may result in an annual average per kWh rate of something closer to $0, say. $0.28 to $0.33/kWh - $0.30/kWh, based on usage pattern and as a result of off peak rates being a lot less than the peak hourly rate.

              So, what often can happen is that the solar ignorant and the rate ignorant latch onto the $0.50/kWh number thinking it's a fact (and it is - sort of), the rest of the story part being conveniently forgotten by hypsters and con men with money to make from the ignorant, and the exaggerated rate takes on a life of its own and, voila' - becomes a fake reality.

              Unfortunately or otherwise, overall, rate structures are too diverse and too complicated to result in "average" rates having much practical use when talking about cost effectiveness of PV or most any other conservation measure if even semi reliable savings and ROI numbers are goals in the exercise.

              Examples:

              - As best as I can estimate, if I was on T.O.U., without solar, my average per kWh rate would be something like ~ $0.26/Wh. The guy next door to me, who is one of my neighbors who graciously shares his usage and bills with me would have a rate of ~ $0.33/kWh based on more usage and a different usage pattern.
              - However, as we're both on tiered rates, his average per kWh charge is ~ 0.32/kWh based on 15,039 kWh/yr. use, while my per kWh rate is $0.237 /kWh based on 6,572 kWh/yr. use.

              Given those numbers, the mix of conservation measures that make the most economic sense look very different for me than for the guy next door.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                If you check on the DOE energy rates for the US they seem to gloss over the higher tiered rates you can find in CA.

                I guess they calculate the cost / kWh on some average billing as well as being based also on the average monthly kWh usage. Here in Fl most of the rates are lower for the first 1000kWh but go up to a slightly higher rate above that 1000.

                Although the base kWh rate is very high for all of New England with CT being at the top. At least they have pretty good incentives for the homeowner to install solar.

                I think they average it out. Here in CT there are only 2 companies with one having 90% of the market in the state.

                I would have still done it even if the incentives weren't there as electricity is so expensive here the numbers would have still worked. It would have just extended my payback a few years.

                The incentives here New England are crazy. Rhode Island just stepped it up with a $1 a watt incentive.

                http://commerceri.com/finance-busine...cale-projects/
                Last edited by BFW577; 07-01-2017, 05:42 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                  After getting into utility rates - mostly for my utility (SDG & E) and those of the other 2 big I.O.U's in CA, but to some small extent the rest of the U.S. as well, one thing I think I see happening that probably applies in most every situation but may be more troublesome when talking about residential utility bills, are the temptations to oversimplify things and then use extreme of rates (as in, for example:" Ya' know, I pay $0.50/kWh in CA so solar's a no brainer for me..."), or simply repeating what someone else incorrectly and ignorantly babbles about rates.

                  The devil's in the details - and in the ignorance resulting from not making the effort and taking the time to be informed. In the $0.50/kWh case, that is indeed close ($0.50629/kWh) to the rate actual peak T.O.U. rate in summer for SDG & E T.O.U. tariff with a PV system. The rest of the story to go with that is that an annual T.O.U. rate bill for some "representative" (??) usage pattern may result in an annual average per kWh rate of something closer to $0, say. $0.28 to $0.33/kWh - $0.30/kWh, based on usage pattern and as a result of off peak rates being a lot less than the peak hourly rate.

                  So, what often can happen is that the solar ignorant and the rate ignorant latch onto the $0.50/kWh number thinking it's a fact (and it is - sort of), the rest of the story part being conveniently forgotten by hypsters and con men with money to make from the ignorant, and the exaggerated rate takes on a life of its own and, voila' - becomes a fake reality.

                  Unfortunately or otherwise, overall, rate structures are too diverse and too complicated to result in "average" rates having much practical use when talking about cost effectiveness of PV or most any other conservation measure if even semi reliable savings and ROI numbers are goals in the exercise.

                  Examples:

                  - As best as I can estimate, if I was on T.O.U., without solar, my average per kWh rate would be something like ~ $0.26/Wh. The guy next door to me, who is one of my neighbors who graciously shares his usage and bills with me would have a rate of ~ $0.33/kWh based on more usage and a different usage pattern.
                  - However, as we're both on tiered rates, his average per kWh charge is ~ 0.32/kWh based on 15,039 kWh/yr. use, while my per kWh rate is $0.237 /kWh based on 6,572 kWh/yr. use.

                  Given those numbers, the mix of conservation measures that make the most economic sense look very different for me than for the guy next door.
                  I was just reading a PG&E page on baseline quantities (which is the daily kwh allocation for Tier 1), and interestingly it mentioned that the quantities are required to be set around 50-60% of average household usage for the tiered standard schedule, e.g. E-1, and about 60-70% of average usage for the tiered TOU schedule, e.g. E-6. So I guess it gives some bounds of what the "average" household's average rate would be. E.g. at 50%, it would be Tier 1 rate * 0.5 + Tier 2 rate * 0.15 + Tier 3 rate *0.35.

                  Of course that's just averages, so every individual household usage would be different, not to mention there are multiple baseline regions and multiple TOU schedules.

                  But you would think that at some level PG&E can add up all the kwh their customers consume and all the $ revenue they bill and get an average $/kwh for all of their customers in NorCal, and be able to provide that figure to regulators to be used in these state-by-state comparison, instead of just picking the lowest Tier 1 rate.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wwu123 View Post
                    But you would think that at some level PG&E can add up all the kwh their customers consume and all the $ revenue they bill and get an average $/kwh for all of their customers in NorCal, and be able to provide that figure to regulators to be used in these state-by-state comparison, instead of just picking the lowest Tier 1 rate.
                    I'm confident they do and have done just that as part of their rate setting agenda, but only a part.

                    Sounds like you've begun to dig into that rate tariffs. I'd encourage you to continue, and not meant as discouraging, but it sounds like you've only scratched the surface.

                    The way the tariifs are constructed, and as much as folks want to "one number fits every situation" the process, the tariffs are not constructed so as to make that more than a wet dream as far as a meaningful number goes. I've cited my neighbor's any my usage for comparison in a prior tread : Theirs: $0.3197/kWh, $4,808/yr. on 15,039 kWh/yr. use. Mine:.$0.2370/kWh, $1,558/yr., on 6,572 kWh/yr. use. Both using current tiered rates. There's nothing that would make one think our average $/kWh rate would be different, but they are because of usage. Point is, an average per kWh rate is pretty much meaningless and misleading for both usages and for planning purposes.

                    Maybe the best a CA POCO could do would be to publish what the min. and max. hourly per kWh rate might be under each tariff with some explanation of the use conditions necessary to produce those rates, and then let consumers choose how to best modify and balance their lifestyles against the average rate and total annual bill they can live with.

                    Also, if tariffs and tariff choices along with the consequences of those choices with respect to conservation measures and possible PV use are understood, better, more appropriate, and more cost effective choices can be made rather than the less than useful results of the hasty, headlong near panic flight from self inflicted high electric bills. The only ones making out it that scenario are the solar peddlers who make a killing off the ignorance and panic.

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