EV charging and PUC rates

[steveholtam]

All this adds to my opinion that the real and long term answer to lower electric bills is to use less electricity.

Ha! The less we use the more they will charge. The fixed costs of a POCO's REQUIRE them to bring in current revenue levels. The less we consume, the more they will charge. Here in Northern California, the water utilities just requested higher rates. The reason: reduced consumption. We were legally mandated to reduce water usage. Water companies lost revenue, and are now demanding increases. Now the drought is ended we will end up paying the new higher water rates probably as they are predicating that water use will continue to be reduced from pre-drought days. We can't win.

[SunEagle]

Ha! The less we use the more they will charge. The fixed costs of a POCO's REQUIRE them to bring in current revenue levels. The less we consume, the more they will charge. Here in Northern California, the water utilities just requested higher rates. The reason: reduced consumption. We were legally mandated to reduce water usage. Water companies lost revenue, and are now demanding increases. Now the drought is ended we will end up paying the new higher water rates probably as they are predicating that water use will continue to be reduced from pre-drought days. We can't win.

If you can't win then go did a hole and put your head in it.

Or maybe vote out the existing government along with the PUC to get your electric rates back down to what most of the US pays.

[jflorey2]

Ha! The less we use the more they will charge. The fixed costs of a POCO's REQUIRE them to bring in current revenue levels.

Yep. That will effectively keep energy costs (not electricity costs) roughly the same. As appliances use less and less power, they will use less of the now-more-expensive power.

The one potential game-changer is storage. It's still in its infancy now, but if it starts to make more of an impact, it will start reducing the need for the infrastructure that currently costs money (copper and concrete) and exchange that for much cheaper infrastructure (plastic and sand.) Lower infrastructure costs, lower income = no change in rates.

[SunEagle]

Yep. That will effectively keep energy costs (not electricity costs) roughly the same. As appliances use less and less power, they will use less of the now-more-expensive power.

The one potential game-changer is storage. It's still in its infancy now, but if it starts to make more of an impact, it will start reducing the need for the infrastructure that currently costs money (copper and concrete) and exchange that for much cheaper infrastructure (plastic and sand.) Lower infrastructure costs, lower income = no change in rates.

I agree with you. If energy storage becomes cost effective then distributive generation is the way we should go.

But until then I expect all electric customers that live in certain areas to have to pay the piper for their power.

[insaneoctane]

I kind of was just venting a bit when I started this thread, but I wasn't really expecting it to go to "use less energy". I personally found after solar installation that my usage went down because I was monitoring it. Only upon receiving a $30 check for my $4xx.00 credit did I start to use more. Now with my EV I suspect that I will just use the credit (albeit at a significant benefit due to the TOU for the EV being controlled to super off peak).

What I was really looking for was folks opinion on TOU in general and forecasting where it is headed. If you assume that EV trends continue then the late night charging could easily pose a very different cost analysis for the PUCs. With my second EV I will likely increase my entire household usage 50%-60%. If many people do this, I can't see PUCs continuing to discount midnight energy so steeply. Especially when you consider how no PV generation is hitting the grid at that time...

[SunEagle]

I kind of was just venting a bit when I started this thread, but I wasn't really expecting it to go to "use less energy". I personally found after solar installation that my usage went down because I was monitoring it. Only upon receiving a $30 check for my $4xx.00 credit did I start to use more. Now with my EV I suspect that I will just use the credit (albeit at a significant benefit due to the TOU for the EV being controlled to super off peak).

What I was really looking for was folks opinion on TOU in general and forecasting where it is headed. If you assume that EV trends continue then the late night charging could easily pose a very different cost analysis for the PUCs. With my second EV I will likely increase my entire household usage 50%-60%. If many people do this, I can't see PUCs continuing to discount midnight energy so steeply. Especially when you consider how no PV generation is hitting the grid at that time...

It will come down to what is profitable for the POCO. If they still have excess power at night then the rates should stay low. If more people use the nite time lower rates to charge their EV's, then the POCO may decide and get permission to raise those rates.

Based on the history of rate change I would not bank on any existing rate to stay the same or go lower.

As you stated once they have you under a barrel they will not let your get away. If you can afford the increased usage then go for it. If you can't afford it, you have few options to choose from with IMO the best is to just find a way to use less.

[sensij]

What I was really looking for was folks opinion on TOU in general and forecasting where it is headed. If you assume that EV trends continue then the late night charging could easily pose a very different cost analysis for the PUCs. With my second EV I will likely increase my entire household usage 50%-60%. If many people do this, I can't see PUCs continuing to discount midnight energy so steeply. Especially when you consider how no PV generation is hitting the grid at that time...

I've seen nothing in the CPUC notes I've read (mostly pertaining to SDG&E) to suggest that middle-of-the-night off-peak pricing for EV's is at risk. The basic TOU structure you have now will be protected for 5 years once the (still being designed) default TOU schemes apply to all customers, but although the structure will remain intact, there is no specific guarantee on rates. They can go up (usually), or down (sometimes), but the EV tariffs aren't very affected by rate reform, in general.

[FFE]

My comment /question is regarding the low price of energy on TOU plan that used to be $0.11 super off peak, that is now $0.13/kWh. At that low price, EVs show significant fuel savings.

One consideration: I am not sure what TOU plan you are on nor what utility you are connected to. But, I am on SCE TOU-A. I now have two EV's and this plan gives you a $0.09 per kWh credit for net used. I am a net user every month of the year. So even when their rates are higher during super off peak in the winter, I only pay $0.0437 per kWh for the amount used that isn't balanced out by credits from the rest of the day. In the summer I exceed the baseline and pay somewhere between $0.04 and $0.14 for my super off peak useage.


How my rates have changed in the last 12 months:
May 2016 Super Off peak minus credit: $0.1168-$0.1043=$0.0125
May 2017 Super Off peak minus credit: $0.13503-$0.09146=$0.4357

So, in one year the cost to charge above the net used and below baseline is over 3 times what it was before. This accounts for an extremely small amount of my yearly bill. The cost above baseline increased by about 16%. I expect super off peak prices to rise a little each year.

[bcroe]

Ha! The less we use the more they will charge. The fixed costs of a POCO's REQUIRE them to bring in current revenue levels. The less we consume, the more they will charge. Here in Northern California, the water utilities just requested higher rates. The reason: reduced consumption. We were legally mandated to reduce water usage. Water companies lost revenue, and are now demanding increases. Now the drought is ended we will end up paying the new higher water rates probably as they are predicating that water use will continue to be reduced from pre-drought days. We can't win.

Right, which is why I try to minimize the # of utilities I'm connected to. I buy no heating fuel, pump my
own water, my own sewer, all dependent on PV solar and the electric Co. Essentially no garbage costs.
Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

Right, which is why I try to minimize the # of utilities I'm connected to. I buy no heating fuel, pump my
own water, my own sewer, all dependent on PV solar and the electric Co. Essentially no garbage costs.
Bruce Roe

I pretty much will have a similar situation by the end of the year. Will have a well and septic and plan on keeping my garbage removal down to a much smaller bag or 2.

Of course I will have an electric bill but now with 2.5 acres I have lots of room for that ground mount pv system.

[jflorey2]

What I was really looking for was folks opinion on TOU in general and forecasting where it is headed. If you assume that EV trends continue then the late night charging could easily pose a very different cost analysis for the PUCs. With my second EV I will likely increase my entire household usage 50%-60%. If many people do this, I can't see PUCs continuing to discount midnight energy so steeply.

You would need to sell a LOT of EV's to start making a dent in the nighttime surplus that most utilities experience. I don't think TOU is at much risk for the near future.

[Sunking]

You would need to sell a LOT of EV's to start making a dent in the nighttime surplus that most utilities experience. I don't think TOU is at much risk for the near future.

Generation no. Distribution is a different story.

[DanKegel]

What I was really looking for was folks opinion on TOU in general and forecasting where it is headed. If you assume that EV trends continue then the late night charging could easily pose a very different cost analysis for the PUCs. With my second EV I will likely increase my entire household usage 50%-60%. If many people do this, I can't see PUCs continuing to discount midnight energy so steeply. Especially when you consider how no PV generation is hitting the grid at that time...

Utilities in California are slowly moving to TOU for all users; I think it'll be the default for new service from IOUs starting at the end of next year.

The utilities are also proposing to change TOU rates to raise off-peak rates a bit and move the peak period away from noon and towards evening; see jkbenergy.com/blog/understanding-potential-2019-cpuc-and-utility-rate-increases

According to CAISO, negative day-ahead prices as low as -$15/MWh have occurred in over 10 percent of all hours between hour ending 10 through 17 so far this year ( see caiso.com/Documents/Department_MarketMonitoringUpdate-Memo-May2017.pdf )... so there's good reason to start shifting peak rates later in the day so they coincide with modern peak net demand rather than historical peak net demand.

It also means there's less economic reason to install solar for the economy as a whole, at least until we're better able to store it, or we have more wind to balance it out.

(Hi JPM! Go to town, I'm sure you'll s**t all over everything I wrote, for the simple reason that you think I'm part of the green mafia, or I'm writing like an expert, or you're in a bad mood, or whatever. I will continue to cheerfully ignore your fact-free diatribes.)

[maximizese]

Wait until your state and federal government figures out you are Freeloading and not paying road fuel taxes like the rest of of us who pay to use the roads.

We paid $9,500 for a 4 year old VW TDI; the registration is $89 a year. We recently paid $7,300 for a 3 year old Fiat 500e; the registration is $453. Hopefully this is not a reoccurring thing, but with a net surplus of energy credits and free charging at my wife's parking garage (45 miles away), I don't mind paying a little more to equalize taxes for road improvements

[J.P.M.]

Utilities in California are slowly moving to TOU for all users; I think it'll be the default for new service from IOUs starting at the end of next year.

The utilities are also proposing to change TOU rates to raise off-peak rates a bit and move the peak period away from noon and towards evening; see jkbenergy.com/blog/understanding-potential-2019-cpuc-and-utility-rate-increases

According to CAISO, negative day-ahead prices as low as -$15/MWh have occurred in over 10 percent of all hours between hour ending 10 through 17 so far this year ( see caiso.com/Documents/Department_MarketMonitoringUpdate-Memo-May2017.pdf )... so there's good reason to start shifting peak rates later in the day so they coincide with modern peak net demand rather than historical peak net demand.

It also means there's less economic reason to install solar for the economy as a whole, at least until we're better able to store it, or we have more wind to balance it out.

(Hi JPM! Go to town, I'm sure you'll s**t all over everything I wrote, for the simple reason that you think I'm part of the green mafia, or I'm writing like an expert, or you're in a bad mood, or whatever. I will continue to cheerfully ignore your fact-free diatribes.)

Hi Dan ! Move your head out of the way and put your post where the sun doesn't shine. Feeling a bit persecuted and a bit more addled than usual today are we ?

Your usual rehash M.O. that most everyone except maybe you knows to be old news, or more B.S. that adds nothing new to the discussion, but for once, I can't disagree with it.

I especially like how you give POCOs your nihil obstat on time shifting that they've been talking about and doing for some time now. That's what they call "price signals". Ever hear of it ? What ever made you think rate times were not flexible all along ?